Thanks for your reply; I may be naive, but I think even engaging in the conversation is a start. Even by replying to this post helps it to be seen and considered.
I think that like you, every ‘ordinary person’ downplays their role. Human rights movements, including civil rights, anti-apartheid, and suffrage all happened because of actions of ordinary people. Sure, by yourself you may not have massive influence, but if you share with your social group, your friends and family may pick it up and share with their social group. I agree that time and energy aren...
Thank you for your reply. I am sorry to hear about your poor personal healthcare experience.
Regarding your other points:
"Cost-effectiveness doesn't mean only efficiency. I think when you're trying to do the most good, ditching the use of cost-effectiveness is quite hard because what will you use instead?"
Equity. I am suggesting a paradigm shift to considering equity as the most important goal. It means spending more on those less fortunate, but sometimes cost-effectiveness and equity align. For example, Give Well donates to low income countries becau...
Strong upvote! I came here to say something similar. One of your most compelling points is addressing the needs and wants of the intended beneficiaries, in contrast with pursuing the most economically efficient cause area. I think there is significant moral weight in ensuring people have what they want and need, which cannot be commodified.
Peter Singer has done the math, and it is possible to reduce by half global hunger and extreme poverty, with modest numbers (old article, but I just found it):
https://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/17/magazine/17charity.t.html
While I am here, humbly, I need to ask a burning question: Your advocacy and behaviour are incongruent with respect to consumption; you consume in a degrowth pattern, but advocate for growth, why?
Thank you!!! For efficiency, I almost only read books by audio now, so as self-declared expert, I agree books read by the author are superior because the author understands the meaning, inflection, and nuance in their words. I think it added value to WWOTF.
I most recently read Winners Take All by Anand Giridharadas, read by the author, and cannot help but feel moral unease about EA position in the philanthropic world right now. He makes a defensible argument for politics as the means of doing the most good.
I would be suspicious of anyone (the libertarians you describe) who claims to be protecting children by endorsing child labour.
Fair point. Although, I think I did also mean “dumbed down longtermism”. Every far longtermist threat, like engineered pandemics, AI alignment, existential risk, great power war, environmental degradation, etc, also threatens current children. Possibly regular people (non-EAs) would understand the threat better/empathize more easily if it were a threat to children vs concepts of future people.
Thank you for the informative comment. I learned two things today - "adultism", and the difference between disenfranchised agent and patient.
I really appreciated your linked question/comment about relating abolition, suffrage, to non-human animals and future people. I agree! Do you think of my association between children and future people is a closer match?
Although I would 100% endorse increasing the agency of children and youth, I can't help but understand adultism as less of a prejudice, and more of a matter-of-fact with respect to small chi...
I appreciate your questions on both of these points.
Tractability - Yes, I see the senate as the roadblock, depending on the party makeup within it. Of course, lobbying state-specific-laws might be more successful, but not as comprehensive. This is the reason I am suggesting going for the big goal. It is more about universal acknowledgement of child rights as agent-less future people. Even if the senate is destined to block it, do you see the possible value in bringing child rights to the agenda, raising the issue in the news, raising public awarenes...
Thanks for pointing out where my argument lacks clarity. I can understand the confusion on the points you have made if the primary goal of ratification were benefit to US kids. I am suggesting the primary goal of US ratification is universal consensus, with the benefit to US kids as more of a positive externality.
The same is true about freeing mothers from exclusive care of children; it would not be the primary goal, but a positive externality. An example here would be in a low income country with no universal health care, a mother must make th...
I agree with this entirely. I submitted a post in which I speak to this very idea, (not as clearly and pointedly as you have done):
"What I see missing, is promotion of the universal benefits of equality, altruism, and goodwill. Here I mean simple altruism, not necessarily effective altruism. Imagine if only 20% of the population worked for the greater good. Or if every person spent 20% of their time at it? Convincing more of the world population to do right by each other, the environment, animals, and the future, in whatever capacity possible, seems to me ...
Is growth the best approach to maximizing the good we can do? What is the effect on the environment? How much consumption is too much? Where does this leave future generations?
What if instead low income countries were granted debt relief, so their policies were not driven by creditors? What about a global minimum wage? Or tax justice, like a universal minimum corporate tax? And what to do about climate reparations?
These ideas are not my own, they are from this podcast:
https://soundcloud.com/citationsneeded/episode-58-the-neoliberal-optimi...
Their assessment seems to be three small policy spheres, rather than global health policy, which is larger in scale.
Global health policy is neglected EA-aligned work. This post is short because the attachment is long; if you read the whole article, and disagree that global health policy work is useful, I am interested to hear your reasons.
The political origins of health inequity: prospects for change
Is growth the best approach to maximizing the good we can do? What is the effect on the environment? How much consumption is too much?
What if low income countries were granted debt relief, so their policies were not driven by creditors? What about a global minimum wage? Or tax justice, like a universal minimum corporate tax? And what to do about climate reparations?
None of these ideas are my own, they are from this podcast:
https://soundcloud.com/citationsneeded/episode-58-the-neoliberal-optimism-industry
I would also wonder about the EA response to "poor countries don't need charity, they need justice"
"Value change" type work - gradually shifting civilizational values to those more in line with human flourishing - might fall into this category too.
This is the first I have seen reference to norm changing in EA. Is there other writing on this idea?
You are right, I missed the "next" button. I did wonder why there was so little discussion on the forum about fair and equal society. I believe you made the comment I found which questions its value.
This is excellent. I have a question I hope you include in your ongoing research:
Are these psychological traits fixed, or can they change?
Background: It is possible my case is unique, but I have changed toward these effectiveness-focused, and expansive altruism traits; having discovered EA in June 2021 I have changed my career path, returned to school to pursue an EA career, taken the GWWC pledge, etc. As recently as 7 years ago, I would not have identified with these traits. Seeing the photo of the dead Syrian refugee boy , Alan Kurdi, (trigger warn...
Agreed, it seems to be escalating fast. Although it is debatable whether the attack on Ukraine was expected, what transpires is becoming more obvious, with Putin's thinly veiled threats of retaliation if NATO defends Ukraine. I have seen excellent arguments against No Fly Zone because enforcement of said NFZ necessitates actually shooting down planes.
Which makes me wonder about the feasibility of a peaceful solution. Sam Bankman-Fried transferred money to the Ukrainian people, and Elon Musk established Starlink over Ukraine. How effective woul...
yes, I agree EAs have different opinions; I was seeking to understand the one I do not follow. Maybe asking for the "general" EA view was the wrong phrasing.
Your reply explains well why an individual or small organization might want to protect patent rights to capitalize, or at the very least preserve investment, to allow for future R&D.
Where I cannot understand the purpose of securing IP rights, is in situations where there is philanthropic money to fund the R&D. If philanthropists fund the original R&D, then "someone else can come...
What is the general EA view on intellectual property rights? Based on the downvotes I get for advocating TRIPs waivers for vaccines, there are at least some on the forum who value IP rights. Why? What is the rationale?
Be that as it may, removal of IP barriers still makes pharmaceuticals more accessible; IP barriers were one of the main reasons for lack of access to HIV/AIDS medications, before they were challenged. I do not see a good reason for EA projects to withhold patent rights, if the purpose of creating the vaccine is doing the most good for the most people. A donation of patent rights is a donation of time and money.
This an inspiring project, and one I have wondered why EA has not addressed before now. I assume the IP rights will be waived to increase the ability to scale? Giving up IP rights is so much more valuable than giving hours and money, and seems to me to be EA aligned.
A parallel project to consider would be evaluation of trust in vaccines in LMICs. I have seen full lots of vaccines wasted in LICs because people do not trust the government, big pharma, health care workers, etc. It may be exclusive to the conflict zones in which I have worked, but vaccine refusal was at least as big a problem as lack of vaccines. Vaccines only work if they are used.
(I am not from Alvea):
To my knowledge, IP wasn't the limiting factor over the last two years. For the big two vaccines, it was the lack of facilities that could handle mRNA encapsulation. People say that the Gates Foundation did damage by making AZ proprietary, but in practice it was licensed very permissively and they ended up producing more than demand. (It could still have been the wrong thing ex ante, i.e. before we knew its disappointing effectiveness.)
You have an interesting idea; if socialist theories have a lot in common with EA thinkers, but have consistently failed, can EA create/devise a governance system that works better? Maybe this is a rhetorical question, but I would sure love to hear from EAs who know history and politics better than I do. From my perspective also as a non-historian, the failures seem to have been in the leadership.
It does. I am impressed.
I only have issue with the semantics of your first sentence. I would suggest no large-scale economic system has ever existed that was successful at maximizing human wellbeing; I think socialist ideals intend to maximize human welfare, but have always failed in implementation. I might say the same for the great religions, though, excellent analogy.
Thank you for taking the time.
True, my mistake. Herd immunity is the public good. I would still suggest vaccines are the cheapest, safest, fastest, most equitable route to herd immunity.
Agree with your concern that waiving IP rights is disincentive for pharmaceutical industry to R&D future medicines and vaccines, but it does not negate the fact that vaccines in a pandemic are a global public good. It is about human rights.
Regarding the financial status of the vaccine companies, half of Pfizer's record-setting revenue in 2021 were from their vaccine.
Although I agree fundamentally with the OP's suggestion for a fully public vaccine development, a concession might be a one year limit on TRIPs patents for vaccine, allowing profit before sharing the tech.
I understood effective altruism is about doing the most good for the most people (sentient beings). The purpose of capitalism is control of industry by private owners, for profit. I cannot reconcile the two purposes if fairness/equity is considered.
Yes, I agree on the point that interventions are best assessed with cost-benefit analysis, rather than propping up inefficient institutions. I was not necessarily suggesting support for WHO, only indicating that the purported leader in global health is spending more time fundraising than leading.
I, perhaps mistakenly, thought EA, particularly Open Phil, was about funding high risk, low yield, but fat tail causes, vs the "sure thing" that Give Well funds.
For pandemic risk, what about funding campaigns to back the TRIPs waiver proposa...
Thank you, I have read the Global Health and Wellbeing portfolio and listened to Alexander Berger's podcast, but I am still left with the question, are they doing enough? Are their causes sufficiently broad? Have they left stones unturned? What innovative cause has been missed? I can't help but think this is a too-easy dismissal of the circumstance, and risks missing opportunities to save lives in very effective cause areas
Interesting metaphor. More interesting is that your summary of Equity as the only endeavour on this ship which does not have a drawback, and which is supportive of the other efforts; could Equity support an Afghan girl to be a gifted Navigator, or more athletic Rowers to move the ship forward? Why would we not try? At the moment there are three Captains who are bickering
Yes, these are all sound counterpoints. Together, they suggest the idea is at least, neglected. I think your point 2 was also made by Stefan_Schubert in a comment above. I would be very interested to see research in the area, if there is any. I agree your points 1&3 are a problem if the number of altruistic people were finite, but what if everyone behaved altruistically, to the benefit of others? To the point that it would not matter if some people chose to donate to seeing eye dog charities?
I can appreciate your argument...
I agree! With both your points on renaming it "altruistic intent", and the reasons behind.
I thought perhaps improving altruistic intent must be somewhere under the EA radar, but in the very superficial reading I have done to date, I had not found it. I will look more specifically now at broad longtermism. To be honest, I was also hoping the EA community had more skills in persuasion and politics, and was already working on it.
Finally, thank you for acknowledging my neophyte attempts on a front page post. It took a lot of internal debate and self-talk to write it ;)
Thanks for your comment, and thanks for the excellent paper! I don't disagree with any of it. I am, perhaps, disappointed that you feel improving general altruism is too difficult to approach. It was a question about which I have no information, so I would be very interested to read any literature you have available on the attempts and failures to do so.
Regarding your second point, I also categorically agree that IF the number of altruistic people is limited, their efforts should always be directed to the most effective. I just cannot get...
Thanks for taking the time to reply! And thanks for acknowledging that it's a good thing to advocate for a ceasefire.
Here is my rationale for it being the best thing:
- I know it is naive and simplistic to say, but war kills and peace saves lives, no matter the circumstance, parties, or reason for the conflict. If we believe that every human life is valued equally, saving the lives of even the most egregious combatants is worthwhile.
- A ceasefire would mitigate further deaths in Palestine, right now. True, protests to end the conflict haven't been effecti
... (read more)