All of MikeJohnson's Comments + Replies

Flimsy Pet Theories, Enormous Initiatives

I consistently enjoy your posts, thank you for the time and energy you invest.

Robin Hanson is famous for critiques in the form of “X isn’t about X, it’s about Y.” I suspect many of your examples may fit this pattern. To wit, Kwame Appiah wrote that “in life, the challenge is not so much to figure out how best to play the game; the challenge is to figure out what game you’re playing.” Andrew Carnegie, for instance, may have been trying to maximize status, among his peers or his inner mental parliament. Elon Musk may be playing a complicated game with SpaceX... (read more)

6Ozzie Gooen1moI think analysis really could help lead to more great things being built. It would be a complete catastrophe if someone said, "This analysis shows that SpaceX is less effective than bunkers... therefore we shouldn't do either" With analysis and optimization, funders could be given more assurance that these projects are great, and could correspondingly put more money into them. This is how the VC world works. I think it's very easy to pattern match "we could use analysis" with "really mediocre bureaucratic red-tape", but that's not at all what I think we can and should aim for.
EA Should Spend Its “Funding Overhang” on Curing Infectious Diseases

Most likely infectious diseases also play a significant role in aging- have seen some research suggesting that major health inflection points are often associated with an infection.

I like your post and strongly agree with the gist.

DM me if you’re interested in brainstorming alternatives to the vaccine paradigm (which seems to work much better for certain diseases than others).

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Generally speaking, I agree with the aphorism “You catch more flies with honey than vinegar;”

For what it’s worth, I interpreted Gregory’s critique as an attempt to blow up the conversation and steer away from the object level, which felt odd. I’m happiest speaking of my research, and fielding specific questions about claims.

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Gregory, I’ll invite you to join the object-level discussion between Abby and I.

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Welcome, thanks for the good questions.

Asymmetries in stimuli seem crucial for getting patterns through the “predictive coding gauntlet.” I.e., that which can be predicted can be ignored. We demonstrably screen perfect harmony out fairly rapidly.

The crucial context for STV on the other hand isn’t symmetries/asymmetries in stimuli, but rather in brain activity. (More specifically, as we’re currently looking at things, in global eigenmodes.)

With a nod back to the predictive coding frame, it’s quite plausible that the stimuli that create the most internal sym... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Abby, I understand. We can just make the best of it.

1a. Yep, definitely. Empirically we know this is true from e.g. Kringelbach and Berridge’s work on hedonic centers of the brain; what we’d be interested in looking into would be whether these areas are special in terms of network control theory.

1c. I may be getting ahead of myself here: the basic approach to testing STV we intend is looking at dissonance in global activity. Dissonance between brain regions likely contribute to this ‘global dissonance’ metric. I’m also interested in measuring dissonance... (read more)

3Abby Hoskin4moOk, thank you for these thoughts. Considering how asymmetries can be both pleasing (complex stimuli seem more beautiful to me than perfectly symmetrical spheres) and useful (as Holly Ellmore points out in the domain of information theory, and as the Mosers found with their Nobel prize winning work on orthogonal neural coding of similar but distinct memories), I question your intuition that asymmetry needs to be associated with suffering.
A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Good catch; there’s plenty that our glossary does not cover yet. This post is at 70 comments now, and I can just say I’m typing as fast as I can!

I pinged our engineer (who has taken the lead on the neuroimaging pipeline work) about details, but as the collaboration hasn’t yet been announced I’ll err on the side of caution in sharing.

To Michael — here’s my attempt to clarify the terms you highlighted:

  • Neurophysiological models of suffering try to dig into the computational utility and underlying biology of suffering

-> existing theories talk about what emo... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Abby, thanks for the questions. I have direct answers to 2,3,4, and indirect answers to 1 and 5.

1a. Speaking of the general case, we expect network control theory to be a useful frame for approaching questions of why certain sorts of activity in certain regions of the brain are particularly relevant for valence. (A simple story: hedonic centers of the brain act as ‘tuning knobs’ toward or away from global harmony. This would imply they don’t intrinsically create pleasure and suffering, merely facilitate these states.) This paper from the Bassett lab is ... (read more)

Hi Mike, 

Thanks again for your openness to discussion, I do appreciate you taking the time. Your responses here are much more satisfying and comprehensible than your previous statements, it's a bit of a shame we can't reset the conversation.

1a. I am interpreting this as you saying there are certain brain areas that, when activated, are more likely to result in the experience of suffering or pleasure. This is the sort of thing that is plausible and possible to test.  

1b. I think you are making a mistake by thinking of the brain like a musical inst... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Samuel, I think it’s a good thought experiment. One prediction I’ve made is that one could make an agent such as that, but it would be deeply computationally suboptimal: it would be a system that maximizes disharmony/dissonance internally, but seeks out consonant patterns externally. Possible to make but definitely an AI-complete problem.

Just as an idle question, what do you suppose the natural kinds of phenomenology are? I think this can be a generative place to think about qualia in general.

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Abby,

I feel we’ve been in some sense talking past each other from the start. I think I bear some of the responsibility for that, based on how my post was written (originally for my blog, and more as a summary than an explanation).

I’m sorry for your frustration. I can only say I’m not intentionally trying to frustrate you, but that we appear to have very different styles of thinking and writing and this may have caused some friction, and I have been answering object-level questions from the community as best I can.

8Abby Hoskin5moObject level questions: 1. Why would asynchronous firing between the visual word form area and the fusiform face area either cause suffering or occur as the result of suffering? 2. If your answer relies on something about how modularism/functionalism is bad: why is source localization critical for your main neuroimaging analysis of interest? 3. If source localization is not necessary: why can't you use EEG to measure synchrony of neural oscillations? 4. Why can't you just ask people if they're suffering? What's the value of quantifying the degree of their suffering using harmonic coherence? 5. Assuming you are right about everything, do you think EA funds would more efficiently reduce suffering by improving living conditions of people in poor countries, or by quantifying the suffering of people living in rich countries and giving them neurofeedback on how coherent their brain harmonics are at the cost of over $500 per hour?
A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

I really appreciate you putting it like this, and endorse everything you wrote. 

I think sometimes researchers can get too close to their topics and collapse many premises and steps together; they sometimes sort of ‘throw away the ladder’ that got them where they are, to paraphrase Wittgenstein. This can make it difficult to communicate to some audiences. My experience on the forum this week suggests this may have happened to me on this topic. I’m grateful for the help the community is offering on filling in the gaps.

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Samuel,

I’d say there’s at least some diversity of views on these topics within QRI. When I introduced STV in PQ, I very intentionally did not frame it as a moral hypothesis. If we’re doing research, best to keep the descriptive and the normative as separate as possible. If STV is true it may make certain normative frames easier to formulate, but STV itself is not a theory of morality or ethics.

One way to put this is that when I wear my philosopher’s hat, I’m most concerned about understanding what the ‘natural kinds’ (in Plato’s terms) of qualia are. If... (read more)

1SamuelKnoche5moThanks for the response. I guess I find the idea that there is such a thing as a platonic form of qualia or valence highly dubious. A simple thought experiment: for any formal description of "negative valence," you could build an agent that acts to maximize this "negative valence" form and still acts exactly like a human maximizing happiness when looking from the outside (something like a "philosophical masochist"). It seems to me that it's impossible to define positive and negative valence independently from the environment the agent is embedded in.
A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi all, I messaged some with Holly a bit about this, and what she shared was very helpful. I think a core part of what happened was a mismatch of expectations: I originally wrote this content for my blog and QRI’s website, and the tone and terminology was geared toward “home team content”, not “away team content”. Some people found both the confidence and somewhat dense terminology offputting, and I think that’s reasonable of them to raise questions. As a takeaway, I‘ve updated that crossposting involves some pitfalls and intend to do things differently next time.

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

I take Andrés’s point to be that there’s a decently broad set of people who took a while to see merit in STV, but eventually did. One can say it’s an acquired taste, something that feels strange and likely wrong at first, but is surprisingly parsimonious across a wide set of puzzles. Some of our advisors approached STV with significant initial skepticism, and it took some time for them to come around. That there are at least a few distinguished scientists who like STV isn’t proof it’s correct, but may suggest withholding some forms of judgment.

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Andrés’s STV presentation to Imperial College London’s psychedelics research group is probably the best public resource I can point to on this right now. I can say after these interactions it’s much more clear that people hearing these claims are less interested in the detailed structure of the philosophical argument, and more in the evidence, and in a certain form of evidence. I think this is very reasonable and it’s something we’re finally in a position to work on directly: we spent the last ~year building the technical capacity to do the sorts of studies we believe will either falsify or directly support STV.

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Holly, I’d say the format of my argument there would be enumeration of claims, not e.g. trying to create a syllogism. I’ll try to expand and restate those claims here:

A very important piece of this is assuming there exists a formal structure (formalism) to consciousness. If this is true, STV becomes a lot more probable. If it isn’t, STV can’t be the case.

Integrated Information Theory (IIT) is the most famous framework for determining the formal structure to an experience. It does so by looking at the causal relationships between components of a system; ... (read more)

I feel like your explanations are skipping a bunch of steps that would help folks understand where you're coming from. FWIW, here's how I make sense of STV:

  1. Neuroscience can tell us that some neurons light up when we eat chocolate, but it doesn't tell us what it is about the delicious experience of chocolate that makes it so wonderful. "This is what sugar looks like" and "this is the location of the reward center" are great descriptions of parts of the process, but they don't explain why certain patterns of neural activations feel a certain way.
  2. Everyone agr
... (read more)
A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Just a quick comment in terms of comment flow: there’s been a large amount of editing of the top comment, and some of the replies that have been posted may not seem to follow the logic of the comment they‘re attached to. If there are edits to a comment that you wish me to address, I’d be glad if you made a new comment. (If you don’t, I don’t fault you but I may not address the edit.)

5Abby Hoskin5moTo be clear, the comment flow was originally disrupted because Mike deleted one of his comments. Then some of his comments got buried under so many downvotes that they're hidden. I edited my top post to try to partially address this.
A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Charles, I think several people (myself, Abby, and now Greg) were put in some pretty uncomfortable positions across these replies. By posting, I open myself to replies, but I was pretty surprised by some of the energy of the initial comments (as apparently were others; both Abby and I edited some of our comments to be less confrontational, and I’m happy with and appreciate that).

Happy to answer any object level questions you have that haven’t been covered in other replies, but this remark seems rather strange to me.

-20Gregory_Lewis5mo
A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Michael, I appreciate the kind effortpost, as per usual. I’ll do my best to answer.

  1. This is a very important question. To restate it in several ways: what kind of thing is suffering? What kind of question is ‘what is suffering’? What would a philosophically satisfying definition of suffering look like? How would we know if we saw it? Why does QRI think existing theories of suffering are lacking? Is an answer to this question a matter of defining some essence, or defining causal conditions, or something else?

Our intent is to define phenomenological valenc... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Seb, I appreciate the honest feedback and kind frame.

I can say that it’s difficult to write a short piece that will please a diverse audience, but that ducks the responsibility of the writer. 

You might be interested in my reply to Linch which notes that STV may be useful even if false; I would be surprised if it were false but it wouldn’t be an end to qualia research, merely a new interesting chapter.

I spoke with the team today about data, and we just got a new batch this week we’re optimistic has exactly the properties we’re looking for (meditativ... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Linch, that’s very well put. I would also add a third possibility (c), which is “is STV false but generative.” — I explore this a little here, with the core thesis summarized in this graphic:

I.e., STV could be false in a metaphysical sense, but insofar as the brain is a harmonic computer (a strong reframe of CSHW), it could be performing harmonic gradient descent. Fully expanded, there would be four cases:

STV true, STHR true

STV true, STHR false

STV false, STHR true

STV false, STHR false

Of course, ‘true and false’ are easier to navigate if we can speak of ... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

This is in fact the claim of STV, loosely speaking; that there is an identity relationship here. I can see how it would feel like an aggressive claim, but I’d also suggest that positing identity relationships is a very positive thing, as they generally offer clear falsification criteria. Happy to discuss object-level arguments as presented in the linked video.

6Holly_Elmore5moBut did you have any reason to posit it? Any evidence that this identity is the case?

Hi Mike, I really enjoy your and Andrés's work, including STV, and I have to say I'm disappointed by how the ideas are presented here, and entirely unsurprised at the reaction they've elicited.

There's a world of a difference between saying "nobody knows what valence is made out of, so we're trying to see if we can find correlations with symmetries in imaging data" (weird but fascinating) and "There is an identity relationship between suffering and disharmony" (time cube). I know you're not time cube man, because I've read lots of other QRI output over the ... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Thanks for adjusting your language to be nicer. I wouldn’t say we’re overwhelmingly confident in our claims, but I am overwhelmingly confident in the value of exploring these topics from first principles, and although I wish I had knockout evidence for STV to share with you today, that would be Nobel Prize tier and I think we’ll have to wait and see what the data brings. For the data we would identify as provisional support, this video is likely the best public resource at this point: 

This sounds overwhelmingly confident to me, especially since you have no evidence to support either of these claims. 


If there is dissonance in the brain, there is suffering; if there is suffering, there is dissonance in the brain. Always.

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

I’d say that’s a fair assessment — one wrinkle that isn’t a critique of what you wrote, but seems worth mentioning, is that it’s an open question if these are the metrics we should be optimizing for. If we were part of academia, citations would be the de facto target, but we have different incentives (we’re not trying to impress tenure committees). That said, the more citations the better of course.

As you say, if STV is true, it would essentially introduce an entirely new subfield. It would also have implications for items like AI safety and those may outw... (read more)

6Linch5moI think of the metrics I mentioned above as proxies rather than as the underlying targets, which is some combination of: a) Is STV true? b) Conditional upon STV being true, is it useful? What my forecasting questions aimed to do is shedding light on a). I agree that academia and citations isn't the best proxy. They may in some cases have conservatism bias (I think trusting the apparent academic consensus on AI risk in 2014 would've been a mistake for early EAs), but are also not immune to falseties/crankery (cf replication crisis). In addition, standards for truth and usefulness are different [https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/FhmWKE77qCPWJ63Y5/karnofsky-on-forecasting-and-what-science-does] within EA circles than academia, partially because we are trying to answer different questions. This is especially an issue as the areas that QRI is likely to interact with (consciousness, psychedelics) seem from the outside to be more prone than average to falseness and motivated cognition, including within academia. This is what I was trying to get at with "will Luke Muelhauser say statements to the effect that the Symmetry Theory of Valence is substantively true?" because Luke is a non-QRI affiliated person within EA who's a) respected and b) have thought about concepts adjacent to QRI's work. Bearing in mind that Luke is very far from a perfect oracle, I would still trust Luke's judgement on this more than an arbitrarily selected academic in an adjacent field. I think the actual question I'm interested in is something like "In X year, will a panel of well-respected EAs a) not affiliated with QRI and b) have very different thoughts from each other and c)who have thought about things adjacent to QRI's work have updated to believing STV to be substantively true" but I was unable to come up with a clean question operationalization in the relatively brief amount of time I gave myself to come up with this. People are free to counterpropose and make their own questions.
A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Thanks valence. I do think the ‘hits-based giving’ frame is important to develop, although I understand it’s doesn’t have universal support as some of the implications may be difficult to navigate.

And thank for appreciating the problem; it’s sometimes hard for me to describe how important the topic feels and all the reasons for working on it.

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Linch, cool idea.

I’d suggest that 100 citations can be a rather large number for papers, depending on what reference class you put us in, 3000 larger still; here’s an overview of the top-cited papers in neuroscience for what it’s worth: https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fnhum.2017.00363/full

Methods papers tend to be among the most highly cited, and e.g. Selen Atasoy’s original work on CSHW has been cited 208 times, according to Google Scholar. Some more recent papers are at significantly less than 100, though this may climb over time.

Anyway m... (read more)

7Linch5moNote that the 2nd question is about total citations rather than of one paper, and 3k citations doesn't seem that high if you're introducing an entirely new subfield (which is roughly what I'd expect if STV is true). The core paper of Friston's free energy principle [https://www.nature.com/articles/nrn2787] has almost 5,000 citations for example, and it seems from the outside that STV (if true) ought to be roughly as big a deal as free energy. For a sense of my prior beliefs about EA-encouraged academic subfields, I think 3k citations in 10 years is an unlikely but not insanely high target for wild animal welfare (maybe 20-30%?), and AI risk is likely already well beyond that ( eg >1k citations for Concrete Problems alone [https://www.google.com/search?q=concrete+problems+in+ai+safety+google+scholar&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS880US880&sxsrf=AOaemvL_L5nhWTa0TS5704QFvRdIVeNRPw%3A1631008156967&ei=nDU3YYa1OtjL-gS55ILYCA&oq=concrete+problems+in+ai+safety+goog&gs_lcp=Cgdnd3Mtd2l6EAEYADIFCCEQoAE6BwgjELADECc6BwgAEEcQsAM6DggAELADEIoDELcDEOUCOgYIABAWEB46BQghEKsCSgQIQRgAUIUeWIAjYLszaAFwAngAgAGFAYgBnQSSAQMyLjOYAQCgAQHIAQrAAQE&sclient=gws-wiz] ).
A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Abby, to give a little more color on the data: we’re very interested in CSHW as it gives us a way to infer harmonic structure from fMRI, which we’re optimistic is a significant factor in brain self-organization. (This is still a live hypothesis, not established fact; Atasoy is still proving her paradigm, but we really like it.)

We expect this structure to be highly correlated with global valence, and to show strong signatures of symmetry/harmony during high-valence states. The question we’ve been struggling with as we’ve been building this hypothesis is ... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Gregory, I’ll own that emoticon. My intent was not to belittle, but to show I’m not upset and I‘m actually enjoying the interaction. To be crystal clear, I have no doubt Hoskin is a sharp scientist and cast no aspersions on her work. Text can be a pretty difficult medium for conveying emotions (things can easily come across as either flat or aggressive).

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Abby, to be honest the parallels between free-energy-minimizing systems and dissonance-minimizing systems is a novel idea we’re playing with (or at least I believe it’s novel - my colleague Andrés coined it to my knowledge) and I’m not at full liberty to share all the details before we publish it. I think it’s reasonable to doubt this intuition, and we’ll hopefully be assembling more support for it soon. 

To the larger question of neural synchrony and STV, a good collection of our argument and some available evidence would be our talk to Robin Carha... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Harrison, that’s very helpful. I think it’s a challenge to package fairly technical and novel research into something that’s both precise and intuitive. Definitely agree that “harmony” is an ambiguous concept.

One of the interesting aspects of this work is it does directly touch on issues of metaphysics and ontology: what are the natural kinds of reality? What concepts ‘carve reality at the joints’? Most sorts of research can avoid dealing with these questions directly, and just speak about observables and predictions. But since part of what we’re doing ... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

I’m glad to hear you feel good about your background and are filled with confidence in yourself and your field. I think the best work often comes from people who don’t at first see all the challenges involved in doing something, because often those are the only people who even try. 

At first I was a little taken aback by your tone, but to be honest I’m a little amused by the whole interaction now.

The core problem with EEG is that the most sophisticated analyses depend on source localization (holographic reconstruction of brain activity), and accurate s... (read more)

  1. In brief, asynchrony levies a complexity and homeostatic cost that harmony doesn’t. A simple story here is that dissonant systems shake themselves apart; we can draw a parallel between dissonance in the harmonic frame and free energy in the predictive coding frame.

I appreciate your direct answer to my question, but I do not understand what you are trying to say. I am familiar with Friston and the free-energy principle, so feel free to explain your theory in those terms. All you are doing here is saying that the brain has some reason to reduce “dissonance i... (read more)

Hi Mike, 

I am comfortable calling myself "somebody who knows a lot about this field", especially in relation to the average EA Forum reader, our current context. 

I respect Karl Friston as well, I'm looking forward to reading his thoughts on your theory. Is there anything you can share? 

The CSHW stuff looks potentially cool, but it's separate from your original theory, so I don't want to get too deep into it here. The only thing I would say is that I don't understand why the claims of your original theory cannot be investigated using standard... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Jpmos, really appreciate the comments. To address the question of evidence, this is a fairly difficult epistemological situation but we’re working with high-valence datasets from Daniel Ingram & Harvard, and Imperial College London (jhana data, and MDMA data, respectively) and looking for signatures of high harmony. 

Neuroimaging is a pretty messy thing, there are no shortcuts to denoising data, and we are highly funding constrained, so I’m afraid we don’t have any peer-reviewed work published on this yet. I can say that initial results seem fai... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Harrison, appreciate the remarks. My response would be more-or-less an open-ended question: do you feel this is a valid scientific mystery? And, what do you feel an answer would/should look like? I.e., correct answers to long-unsolved mysteries might tend to be on the weird side, but there’s “useful generative clever weird” and “bad wrong crazy timecube weird”. How would you tell the difference?

Haha, I certainly wouldn't label what you described/presented as "timecube weird." To be honest, I don't have a very clear cut set of criteria, and upon reflection it's probable that the prior is a bit over-influenced by my experiences with some social science research and theory as opposed to hard science research/theory. Additionally, it's not simply that I'm skeptical of whether the conclusion is true, but more generally my skepticism heuristics for research is about whether whatever is being presented is "A) novel/in contrast with existing theories or ... (read more)

A Primer on the Symmetry Theory of Valence

Hi Abby, I‘m happy to entertain well-meaning criticism, but it feels your comment rests fairly heavily on credentialism and does not seem to offer any positive information, nor does it feel like high-level criticism (“their actual theory is also bad”). If your background is as you claim, I’m sure you understand the nuances of “proving” an idea in neuroscience, especially with regard to NCCs (neural correlates of consciousness) — neuroscience is also large enough that  “I published a peer reviewed fMRI paper in a mainstream journal” isn’t a particularl... (read more)

Hi Mike! I appreciate your openness to discussion even though I disagree with you. 
 

Some questions:
 

1. The most important question: Why would synchrony between different brain areas involved in totally different functions be associated with subjective wellbeing? I fundamentally don't understand this. For example, asynchrony has been found to be useful in memory as a way of differentiating similar but different memories during encoding/rehearsal/retrieval. It doesn't seem like a bad thing that the brain has a reason to reduce, the way it has ... (read more)

All Possible Views About Humanity's Future Are Wild

I like this theme a lot! 

In looking at longest-term scenarios, I suspect there might be useful structure&constraints available if we take seriously the idea that consciousness is a likely optimization target of sufficiently intelligent civilizations. I offered the following on Robin Hanson's blog:

Premise 1: Eventually, civilizations progress until they can engage in megascale engineering: Dyson spheres, etc.

Premise 2: Consciousness is the home of value: Disneyland with no children is valueless. 
Premise 2.1: Over the long term we should expect... (read more)

Qualia Research Institute: History & 2021 Strategy

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the reply! I am a bit surprised at this:

Getting more clarity on emotional valence does not seem particularly high-leverage to me. What's the argument that it is?

The quippy version is that, if we’re EAs trying to maximize utility, and we don’t have a good understanding of what utility is, more clarity on such concepts seems obviously insanely high-leverage. I’ve written about specific relevant to FAI here: https://opentheory.net/2015/09/fai_and_valence/ Relevance to building a better QALY here: https://opentheory.net/2015/06/effecti... (read more)

2kokotajlod10moSorry for the delayed reply! Didn't notice this until now. Sure, I'd be happy to see your slides, thanks! Looking at your post on FAI and valence, it looks like reasons no. 3, 4, 5, and 9 are somewhat plausible to me. I also agree that there might be philosophical path-dependencies in AI development and that doing some of the initial work ourselves might help to discover them--but I feel like QRI isn't aimed at this directly and could achieve this much better if it was; if it happens it'll be a side-effect of QRI's research. For your flipped criticism: --I think bolstering the EA community and AI risk communities is a good idea --I think "blue sky" research on global priorities, ethics, metaphilosophy, etc. is also a good idea if people seem likely to make progress on it --Obviously I think AI safety, AI governance, etc. are valuable --There are various other things that seem valuable because they support those things, e.g. trying to forecast decline of collective epistemology and/or prevent it. --There are various other things that don't impact AI safety but independently have a decently strong case that they are similarly important, e.g. ALLFED or pandemic preparedness. --I'm probably missing a few things --My metaphysical uncertainty... If you mean how uncertain am I about various philosophical questions like what is happiness, what is consciousness, etc., then the answer is "very uncertain." But I think the best thing to do is not try to think about it directly now, but rather to try to stabilize the world and get to the Long Reflection so we can think about it longer and better later.
Qualia Research Institute: History & 2021 Strategy

Hi Daniel,

Thanks for the remarks! Prioritization reasoning can get complicated, but to your first concern:

Is emotional valence a particularly confused and particularly high-leverage topic, and one that might plausibly be particularly conductive getting clarity on? I think it would be hard to argue in the negative on the first two questions. Resolving the third question might be harder, but I’d point to our outputs and increasing momentum. I.e. one can levy your skepticism on literally any cause, and I think we hold up excellently in a relative sense. We ma... (read more)

Is emotional valence a particularly confused and particularly high-leverage topic, and one that might plausibly be particularly conductive getting clarity on? I think it would be hard to argue in the negative on the first two questions. Resolving the third question might be harder, but I’d point to our outputs and increasing momentum. I.e. one can levy your skepticism on literally any cause, and I think we hold up excellently in a relative sense. We may have to jump to the object-level to say more.

I don't think I follow.  Getting more clarity on emoti... (read more)

New book — "Suffering-Focused Ethics: Defense and Implications"

Congratulations on the book! I think long works are surprisingly difficult and valuable (both to author and reader) and I'm really happy to see this.

My intuition on why there's little discussion of core values is a combination of "a certain value system [is] tacitly assumed" and "we avoid discussing it because ... discussing values is considered uncooperative." To wit, most people in this sphere are computationalists, and the people here who have thought the most about this realize that computationalism inherently denies the p... (read more)

Thanks, Mike!

Great questions. Let me see whether I can do them justice.

If you could change peoples' minds on one thing, what would it be? I.e. what do you find the most frustrating/pernicious/widespread mistake on this topic?

Three important things come to mind:

1. There seems to be this common misconception that if you hold a suffering-focused view, then you will, or at least you should, endorse forms of violence that seem abhorrent to common sense. For example, you should consider it good when people get killed (because it prevents future suffering fo... (read more)

Reducing long-term risks from malevolent actors

A core 'hole' here is metrics for malevolence (and related traits) visible to present-day or near-future neuroimaging.

Briefly -- Qualia Research Institute's work around connectome-specific harmonic waves (CSHW) suggests a couple angles:

(1) proxying malevolence via the degree to which the consonance/harmony in your brain is correlated with the dissonance in nearby brains;
(2) proxying empathy (lack of psychopathy) by the degree to which your CSHWs show integration/coupling with the CSHWs around you.

Both of these analyses could be done today, ... (read more)

Intro to Consciousness + QRI Reading List

Very important topic! I touch on McCabe's work in Against Functionalism (EA forum discussion); I hope this thread gets more airtime in EA, since it seems like a crucial consideration for long-term planning.

I'm Buck Shlegeris, I do research and outreach at MIRI, AMA

Hey Pablo! I think Andres has a few up on Metaculus; I just posted QRI's latest piece of neuroscience here, which has a bunch of predictions (though I haven't separated them out from the text):

https://opentheory.net/2019/11/neural-annealing-toward-a-neural-theory-of-everything/

I think it would be worthwhile to separate these out from the text, and (especially) to generate predictions that are crisp, distinctive, and can be resolved in the near term. The QRI questions on metaculus are admirably crisp (and fairly near term), but not distinctive (they are about whether certain drugs will be licensed for certain conditions - or whether evidence will emerge supporting drug X for condition Y, which offer very limited evidence for QRI's wider account 'either way').

This is somewhat more promising from your most recent post:

I’d expect

... (read more)
I'm Buck Shlegeris, I do research and outreach at MIRI, AMA

We’ve looked for someone from the community to do a solid ‘adversarial review’ of our work, but we haven’t found anyone that feels qualified to do so and that we trust to do a good job, aside from Scott, and he's not available at this time. If anyone comes to mind do let me know!

I'm Buck Shlegeris, I do research and outreach at MIRI, AMA

I think this is a great description. "What happens if we seek out symmetry gradients in brain networks, but STV isn't true?" is something we've considered, and determining ground-truth is definitely tricky. I refer to this scenario as the "Symmetry Theory of Homeostatic Regulation" - https://opentheory.net/2017/05/why-we-seek-out-pleasure-the-symmetry-theory-of-homeostatic-regulation/ (mostly worth looking at the title image, no need to read the post)

I'm (hopefully) about a week away from releasing an update to some of th... (read more)

3vaniver2yOh, an additional detail that I think was part of that conversation: there's only really one way to have a '0-error' state in a hierarchical controls framework, but there are potentially many consonant energy distributions that are dissonant with each other. Whether or not that's true, and whether each is individually positive valence, will be interesting to find out. (If I had to guess, I would guess the different mutually-dissonant internally-consonant distributions correspond to things like 'moods', in a way that means they're not really value but are somewhat close, and also that they exist. The thing that seems vaguely in this style are differing brain waves during different cycles of sleep, but I don't know if those have clear waking analogs, or what they look like in the CSHW picture.)
I'm Buck Shlegeris, I do research and outreach at MIRI, AMA

I think we actually mostly agree: QRI doesn't 'need' you to believe qualia are real, that symmetry in some formalism of qualia corresponds to pleasure, that there is any formalism about qualia to be found at all. If we find some cool predictions, you can strip out any mention of qualia from them, and use them within the functionalism frame. As you say, the existence of some cool predictions won't force you to update your metaphysics (your understanding of which things are ontologically 'first class objects').

But- you won'... (read more)

3Matthew_Barnett2yI would think this might be our crux (other than perhaps the existence of qualia themselves). I imagine any predictions you produce can be adequately captured in a mathematical framework that makes no reference to qualia as ontologically primitive. And if I had such a framework, then I would have access to the generator, full stop. Adding qualia doesn't make the generator any better -- it just adds unnecessary mental stuff that isn't actually doing anything for the theory. I am not super confident in anything I said here, although that's mostly because I have an outside view that tells me consciousness is hard to get right. My inside view tells me that I am probably correct, because I just don't see how positing mental stuff that's separate from mathematical law can add anything whatsoever to a physical theory. I'm happy to talk more about this some day, perhaps in person. :)
I'm Buck Shlegeris, I do research and outreach at MIRI, AMA

Thanks Matthew! I agree issues of epistemology and metaphysics get very sticky very quickly when speaking of consciousness.

My basic approach is 'never argue metaphysics when you can argue physics' -- the core strategy we have for 'proving' we can mathematically model qualia is to make better and more elegant predictions using our frameworks, with predicting pain/pleasure from fMRI data as the pilot project.

One way to frame this is that at various points in time, it was completely reasonable to be a skeptic about modeling things like li... (read more)

3Matthew_Barnett2yAgreed :). My main claim was that by only arguing physics, I will never agree upon your theory because your theory assumes the existence of elementary stuff that I don't believe in. Therefore, I don't understand how this really helps. Would you be prepared say the same about many worlds vs consciousness causes collapse theories? (Let's assume that we have no experimental data which distinguishes the two theories). The problem with the analogy to magnetism and electricity is that fails to match the pattern of my argument. In order to incorporate magnetism into our mathematical theory of physics, we merely added more mathematical parts. In this, I see a fundamental difference between the approach you take and the approach taken by physicists when they admit the existence of new forces, or particles. In particular, your theory of consciousness does not just do the equivalent of add a new force, or mathematical law that governs matter, or re-orient the geometry of the universe. It also posits that there is a dualism in physical stuff: that is, that matter can be identified as having both mathematical and mental properties. Even if your theory did result in new predictions, I fail to see why I can't just leave out the mental interpretation of it, and keep the mathematical bits for myself. To put it another way, if you are saying that symmetry can be shown to be the same as valence, then I feel I can always provide an alternative explanation that leaves out valence as a first-class object in our ontology. If you are merely saying that symmetry is definitionally equivalent to valence, then your theory is vacuous because I can just delete that interpretation from my mathematical theory and emerge with equivalent predictions about the world. And in practice, I would probably do so, because symmetry is not the kind of thing I think about when I worry about suffering. I agree that if you had made predictions that classical neuroscientists all agreed would never occur,
I'm Buck Shlegeris, I do research and outreach at MIRI, AMA

QRI is tackling a very difficult problem, as is MIRI. It took many, many years for MIRI to gather external markers of legitimacy. My inside view is that QRI is on the path of gaining said markers; for people paying attention to what we're doing, I think there's enough of a vector right now to judge us positively. I think these markers will be obvious from the 'outside view' within a short number of years.

But even without these markers, I'd poke at your position from a couple angles:

I. Object-level criticism is best

First, I don&apos... (read more)

I'm Buck Shlegeris, I do research and outreach at MIRI, AMA

Buck- for an internal counterpoint you may want to discuss QRI's research with Vaniver. We had a good chat about what we're doing at the Boston SSC meetup, and Romeo attended a MIRI retreat earlier in the summer and had some good conversations with him there also.

To put a bit of a point on this, I find the "crank philosophy" frame a bit questionable if you're using only thin-slice outside view and not following what we're doing. Probably, one could use similar heuristics to pattern-match MIRI as "crank philosophy" also (probably, many people have already done exactly this to MIRI, unfortunately).

FWIW I agree with Buck's criticisms of the Symmetry Theory of Valence (both content and meta) and also think that some other ideas QRI are interested in are interesting. Our conversation on the road trip was (I think) my introduction to Connectome Specific Harmonic Waves (CSHW), for example, and that seemed promising to think about.

I vaguely recall us managing to operationalize a disagreement, let me see if I can reconstruct it:

A 'multiple drive' system, like PCT's hierarchical control system, has an easy time explaining independent des
... (read more)

Most things that look crankish are crankish.

I think that MIRI looks kind of crankish from the outside, and this should indeed make people initially more skeptical of us. I think that we have a few other external markers of legitimacy now, such as the fact that MIRI people were thinking and writing about AI safety from the early 2000s and many smart people have now been persuaded that this is indeed an issue to be concerned with. (It's not totally obvious to me that these markers of legitimacy mean that anyone should take us seriously on the question &... (read more)

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