All of adamaero&#x27;s Comments + Replies

It would be better if you started with, "Perhaps suffering matters more than [death]."

Also, see these:

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antinatalism "never be born in the first place"
(2) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference_utilitarianism "given their massive population"
- https://animalstudiesrepository.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1134&context=animsent
(3) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_of_nature ~ facile: "reducing wild-animal populations"
(6) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism

M... (read more)

Open Thread #42

A Research Framework to Improve Real-World Giving Behavior

[Adam and Tilda turn to leave the room]

HM: Adam. Listen to me. For the sake of my grandson, if not your own. There is a natural order to this world, and those who try to upend it do not fare well. This movement will never survive. If you join them, you and your entire family will be shunned. At best, you exist as pariah, to be spat on and beaten. At worst, lynched or crucified.

(At the same time in year 2144 we see Sonmi being led to her execution, watched by a crowd which includes Mephi, she smiles with a tear rolling down her face as the device that ... (read more)

Why are you here? An origin stories thread.

What, exactly, are we marketing?

Sacrifice: not so small as to feel meaningless and not so extreme as to be unreasonable.

E.g., not donating a couple cents every century and not reducing oneself to poverty or martyrdom.

- GiveWell (1)
- Animal Charity Evaluators (2)

Who are we marketing it to?

Various individuals who have extra money, and are not caught up buying the next phone and bigger car*:

(1) Empathetic liberals (I guess), those who haven't been rich all their life, altruists, etc.

Not hard conservatives, not those who haven't given others a sec... (read more)

Jon_Behar

Thanks for sharing these thoughts! I particularly like the “giving fast” vs “giving slow” distinction. One of the reasons I think donor intermediaries are so important is because they often nudge donors to give thoughtfully instead of instinctively. For instance, Donor Advised Funds represent an enormous opportunity both because of the size of the market and because they let donors separate the decisions of “whether/how much to give” and “why to give.”

Part of my origin story is here: Doing vs Talking at EA Events.

I wrote my full origin story somewhere on Quora. In a nutshell, I didn't see everyone's live as having much of any meaning. I didn't see my life as meaningful. I tried thinking about what what I will eventually do, work wise. But I couldn't think of what that would be. I wanted to start working towards being an expert at whatever work that was to be. And so, I figured in my preteen years, that I really didn't have a purpose.

Long story short, as an auxiliary sort of life, I decided to live for ... (read more)

Diction and pronouns have tone (e.g., "you're reinforcing" vs a more modest "that could reinforce"). With that, expressing certainty, about predictions (e.g., "whenever a group of people") is another way I saw the original comment as harsh--unless you're an expert in the field (and a relevant study would help too). I, for one, am no anthropologist nor sociologist.

I'm not debating if here. You asked how, and I quoted the statements I saw as the most harsh + most questionable. [I'm trying to say this lightly. Instead I could ... (read more)

They were examples to how I saw how your post as "harsher than necessary". You've diluted these mere examples into a frivolous debate. If you believe you were not harsh at all, then believe what you want to believe.

-2

kbog

As I stated already, "harsh" is a question of tone, and you clearly weren't talking about my tone. So I have no clue what your position is or what you were trying to accomplish by providing your examples. There's nothing I can do in the absence of clarification.

@kbog: Most of your responses with respect to my reply do not make sense. Example, EA Chicago posts their events on the Facebook page. I don't live in Chicago...(simple as that)

The physics stack exchange doesn't try to exclude engineers

~ completely missed the point. Additionally, the analogy is fine. There is seldom such a thing as an absolute analogy. With that, it doesn't follow that somehow the analogy is wrong related to these elusively implicit misconceptions by EAs about EAs.

So to sum up, you're reading in way too far to what I wrote originally. I was answering your question related to why your first reply was "harsher than necessary".

-1

kbog

OK, but has nothing to do with whether or not we should have this discord server... why bring it up? In the context of your statements, can't you see how much it looks like someone is complaining that there are too many events that only appeal to EAs who support long-term causes, and too few events for EAs who support near-term causes? It's not that the analogy was not absolute, it's that it was relevantly wrong for the topic of discussion. But given that your argument doesn't seem to be what I thought it was, that's fine, it could very well be relevant for your point. I figured that "harsh" refers to tone. If I insult you, or try to make you feel bad, or inject vicious sarcasm, then I'm being harsh. You didn't talk about anything along those lines, but you did seem to be disputing my claims about the viability of the OP, so I took it to be a defense of having this new discord server. If you're not talking on either of those issues then I don't know what your point is.

adamaero6y-3

"so it will be a destructive feedback loop" ~ not necessarily

"you're reinforcing an assumption that they can't get along" ~ unlikely

"whenever a group of people [...] extreme end of the spectrum, who are the most closed-minded and intolerant" ~ very big presumptions

I personally think this chat is a great idea. Too many times on Facebook groups, I have to see local events that I can't attend. Too many times I see EA posts that have no relevance to my involvement in EA. That doesn't mean I'm closed-minded. Most EAs, picking a... (read more)

kbog

All three of those are merely cases of you disagreeing with my claims or my confidence in them. I thought I was being tone-policed, but you are just saying that I am wrong. The fact that people are unable to attend something is one of the problems with the server that is being promoted here. I'm not in favor of anything in EA that does this, if someone ever tries to exclude near-term EAs from their event then give me a ping and I will argue with them too! Theoretical physicists are not upset by the presence of discussion on experimental physics, and the ones who disbelieve in dark matter are not upset by the presence of discussion from people who do. If lots of posts aren't relevant to you, the right answer is presumably to ignore those posts; I and so many other EAs do it all the time, it's easy. If you want more content that is relevant to you... that's perfect! Make it! Request it! Ask questions about it! Be the change that you wish to see in the world. The physics stack exchange doesn't try to exclude engineers, and they didn't make it because they thought that engineers were "alienating"; if they operated on that basis then it would create unnecessary annoyance for everyone. They separate because they are different topics, with different questions that need to be answered, and the skills and education which are relevant to one are very different from those that matter for another. But "near-term Effective Altruism", just like "long-term Effective Altruism", is a poorly specified bundle of positions with no common methodological thread. The common thread within each bundle is not any legitimate underlying presupposition about values or methodology that may form the foundation for further inquiry, it is an ex post facto conclusion that the right cause is something that happens to be short- or long-term. And while some cause conclusions could form a meaningful basis for significant further inquiry (e.g., you selected poverty as a cause, so now you just want to

Effective Giving vs. Effective Altruism

Is the other Discord not publicly viewable? I've never heard of it.

mic

https://www.reddit.com/r/EffectiveAltruism/comments/6etmdd/new_effective_altruism_discord_server/

kbog

It's public. I would share a link, but that would give away my discord identity, hopefully someone has it.

Additional plans for the new EA Forum

I do not understand.

quite a bit of danger in rapid movement growth of attracting people who might dilute the EA movement and impair the building of good infrastructure down the road (see this video* and paper**).

Things I do get: Building a movement with ignorant people may not be good. But becoming veg*an or signing the GWWC pledge and following through is all it really takes. Every EA doesn't have to be super knowledgeable.

Users on a website is one thing. For example, each StackExchange needs a healthy balance of participants for good questions and e... (read more)

Promoting Effective Giving at Conferences via Speed Giving Games

I hope it has a locked top title bar of "EFFECTIVE ALTRUISM FORUM" so it shows what I'm looking at to other people (even when scrolling down the page).

Are Giving Games a better way to teach philanthropy?

One doesn't need studies to determine which charities have negative effects. (That's not true for the reverse obviously.)

Play Pump is the archetype. There are plenty others, especially in Haiti.

Gleb_T, go on GuideStar. If you're truly interested in finding the charities with negative effects, there are transparent charities that do more harm then good. Additionally, some have enormous administrative/advertising fees, a vice in itself. I was reading a 990 Form for a charity in Florida with over 85% put to advertising!

I'm about to put on a Giving Game for passerbyers in the middle of a student center building. AKA Speed Giving game at a tabling booth. It will go on for however long my schedule will allow. This will be 3-4 hours at a time. (I am the only explicit-EA at my uni.)

I plan on having a stack of $2 bills and three fish bowls for three different charities. Not many students will participate. (I've volunteered for the Engineers Without Borders booth in the same place, and few stop to see our stand. They are mainly going downstairs to eat.)

From what I've read abou... (read more)

Remote Volunteering Opportunities in Effective Altruism

What continuous objective tasks did members do in that group?

I see one "problem" mentioned in a comment. It was said how doing freelance work could potentially be a inefficient way to make money. I'd be happy to know what other problems you see in the comments that are directly about freelancing. I didn't see another about freelancing itself.

Second, this is long-term freelancing. Nothing about what I said is short-term. This is a continual-regularly scheduled sort of meetup. Ideally, I expect to do it weekly.

(Aside, "I feel your desire for doing at a meet up," doesn't make sense to me. What are you trying to say?)

This is a very concrete action. Thank you.

http://allfed.info/joinourteam/

We are currently not recruiting.

Helping out at a fundraiser, esp. supporting an effective charity like AMF or SCI
Volunteering as a group either locally or collectively on eawork.club
Doing contract work online (though UpWork for example)

Since so many GWWC signers are into software development and engineering, it makes sense that someone in the industry could start a weekly group that involves helping students and potentially doing freelance work online.

Helping out at a fundraiser, esp. supporting an effective charity like AMF or SCI
Volunteering as a group either locally or collectively on eawork.club
Doing contract work online (though UpWork for example)

“It would be helpful if EA orgs were willing to give our group consulting tasks that we could use as a learning opportunity”

Bingo! Either eawork.club or there are freelance contracts out there (on such places like UpWork).

The point is to have something done at a regular weekly EA meeting that is specific to EA. Something concrete. Something constant. I got the impression talking with other students that weekly club meetings primarily entail discussing ideas.

animal advocacy

There are other groups that do this on campus. It's definitely related to EA, but combined with the fact that it's a soft-sell, volunteering at a local animal shelter or food pantry--in my opinion--seems like a better use of time. Not eating meat or not eating animal products is a significant lifestyl... (read more)

Raemon

Re: Research This is actually what I currently think EA groups should focus on, not because the research itself is likely to be directly important, but because I think generally, one of the most important things an EA community should do is help it's members learn how to think critically through an EA lens. Research isn't the only way to go about this, but I think trying to answer real questions, while taking into account impact, practicality, neglectedness, etc to help you orient on the right questions, is a good practice.

adamaero6y3

“Nothing was practically accomplished at the meeting. Ideas were discussed.”

Mention something about how it's a social event. In Engineers Without Borders, every other off-week, we have a meeting that's focused on community building. It's the same sort of deal.
To that other electrical engineering major (who tagged along to the EA Madison event), I would now say, "It's like going to a technical conference. People going to an Altium (industry standard for PCB design software) conference are going to discuss and learn Altium. Specialized language is o

... (read more)

How to have cost-effective fun

It seems like the new idea you're adding to the forum is that local EA groups should earn money together.

No. Earning money together is not what I mean. Example. A two hour work meetup is scheduled. Unlike a purely social meetup, such as meeting at a bar, this type of meetup will involve working contracts. It makes sense to increase morale by contributing to one charity at the end of the day for the event. This is just what I see happening. Perhaps even a competitive aspect, the top contributor gets to pick the charity. When telling others, "We rais... (read more)

Kirsten

You keep coming back to this focus on doing "something," which has been suggested on the forum before. You seem to think that freelancing together beats many other alternatives. Why do you think that freelancing is competitive with other options discussed in the articles you cited? Examples of "something" that could be (and often is) done instead of freelancing contracts: -animal advocacy -political lobbying -research or writing an "Effective Thesis" -making yourself more employable for after you graduate -hosting a fundraiser EDIT: I keep focusing on the freelancing point, because that's the unique aspect of your post. But maybe the freelancing idea wasn't your core concern - maybe you were more focused on talking about why local groups should do direct work. In that case, I think you'd find better discussion in the comments of one of the already-posted groups or with the leaders of the local group you visited than on this new post.

dhamma.org/en-US/maps#001

Vipassana meditation retreats are all over the world, and they are free. The catch? You need to attend the full ten days the first time to learn the technique. (You can always leave early, but you will only learn part of the technique.)

Also, prayer is a meditation technique. In Buddhism/dharma, we call it metta.

Be free.

Positly wants to accelerate social science research and have a greater impact within the EA community… and you can help

Effective Altruism Merchandise Ideas

Seems to be a broken link for the Facebook group: "Join our Supporters/Advisors/Users private group on Facebook"

Luke Freeman

Sorry I seemed to miss this comment earlier 😅 Thanks for pointing it out – fixed now 😀

Three levels of cause prioritisation

Here's another link: effectivealtruismapparel.com

I was looking for a dark-colored hat for running. That's one of the most informal ways to bring up EA. I mean, I'm always in an informal setting when when I want to use such a cap. It seems that the cheapest price is $25 for such a hat.

Announcing the Effective Altruism Handbook, 2nd edition

Thank you. I commonly try to say something at a "high-level" (such as the difference between relative and absolute/extreme poverty). Now, instead, I will mention something about distributing mosquito bed nets, steel roofs in Kenya (GiveDirectly) or developing clean meat. I anticipate some questions on that last one :)

Announcing the Effective Altruism Handbook, 2nd edition

I also believe there are two broad types of EAs today. So this is interesting. Although, I am a little confused on some of your meaning. Can you make some of those into complete sentences?

2) How are these different between Type 1 and Type 2?

4) "Evidence is more direct" in what regard or context??

Lastly, the list seems skewed, favoring Type 2.

RandomEA

To me, it cannot be seriously disputed that improving the lives of currently alive humans is good, that improving the welfare of current and future animals is good, and that preventing the existence of farm animals who would live overall negative lives is good. By contrast, I think that you can make a plausible argument that there is no moral value to ensuring that a person who would live a happy life comes into existence (though as noted above, you can make the case for reducing global catastrophic risks without relying on that benefit). It's easier to measure the effectiveness of the program being implemented by a global health charity, the effectiveness of that charity at implementing the program, and the effectiveness of an animal charity at securing corporate pledges than it is to measure the impact of biosecurity and AI alignment organizations.

Announcing the Effective Altruism Handbook, 2nd edition

JoshP's comment ~ which you took care of

Announcing the Effective Altruism Handbook, 2nd edition

Doing Good Better

Announcing the Effective Altruism Handbook, 2nd edition

As mentioned by others, the formatting is poor. I most like page 166 where a choice between a short and long video is given. Although, the spacing for the descriptions is odd. The book list is exactly what I want to see, but there is a period floating for 80k Hours, and no period for The Most Good You Can Do. Awesome content, but not something I would share with others. The formatting is just too inconsistent.

I wish there were some profile descriptions of real-world effective altruists, even one or two people who are only partially on board. I consider

... (read more)

MaxDalton

Thanks for your feedback. Thanks for catching that mistake, we'll fix that floating period, and the other errors that others have spotted. When you say "as mentioned by others", are you only referring to the comments above, or is there some discussion of this that I'm missing? It would be good to catch all of the mistakes! Thanks for the suggestions on content. I'll have a think about whether it would be useful to include profiles somewhere.

Please Take the 2018 Effective Altruism Survey!

Minor Critique

On page 140 of the handbook, "Does foreign aid really work?" Moyo's Dead Aid is mentioned. Although, she is strictly speaking about gov't aid: "But this books is not concerned with emergency and charity based aid." (End of page 7, Dead Aid.)

(1) humanitarian or emergency ~ mobilized and dispensed in response to catastrophes and calamities

(2) charity-based ~ disbursed by NGOs to institutions or people

(3) systematic: "aid payments made directly to governments either though government-to-government transfers [bilateral ai... (read more)

kbog

I haven't read the book, but a lot of government aid goes to very similar programs as private aid, however. It's not clear to me that none of the conclusions remain true. Charity is such a touchy moralistic subject in the US, and foreign aid such a juicy political target, that I wouldn't be surprised if the author walled off the topic in such a manner for editorial rather than rational reasons.

MaxDalton

Thank you for pointing this out! I'll remove that reference.

Excerpt from 'Doing Good Better': How Vegetarianism Decreases Animal Product Supply

11) Do you know of a local EA group?

I know of a local EA group near me

I do not know of a local EA group near me

-> -> I know there is no local EA group near me.

adamaero6y3

Following a preference utilitarian system, you are correct. Hare discusses this in, Why I Am only a Demi-vegetarian. Singer also mention it in, Singer and His Critics.

Although, that's not the reality today (in the US at least). Unethical living conditions, such at battery cages for chickens or a short life confined to small pens for other livestock is the point. No such being wants to suffer unnecessarily. On the other hand, if factory farming was like ol' MacDonald farm, then sure. Kind of a paradox...

Aren't you going further from the definition though?

Any short definition about EA by itself I find to be abstract. Most people I encounter assume it's about doing as much good small things as possible--or worse that it's a political philosophy (red/blue thinking). It's only when I give examples of myself or ask what their cause interests could be that they slowly break away from the abstract dictionary definitions.

I do not mean "the reason" can change--I just do not think you can reduce someone's worldview, Weltanschauung, into one simple reason (unless maybe for #6).

Regardless, I don't think a survey here would be representative anyway.

Cognitive and emotional barriers to EA's growth

Sorry, I cannot choose one. Reasons change. There was never a be-all end-all reason for me.
(Also, a few of these are justifications instead of actual reasons.)

For lack of a better* English word, vicissitude (natural change visible in nature or in human affairs) comes closest to why I refuse to choose "the reason." It doesn't truly exist ;)

*Vicissitude usually has a negative connotation.

1. 1. 1 ≡ 8 ∴ 9.

Jeffhe

Hey adamaero, I agree that reasons change! But I would be curious what your current reason is :P (don't worry if you don't want to say) Also, can you tell me which count as justifications and which count as reasons for you, and the difference between a reason and a justification for you? I understand myself to be using the word 'reason' to mean cause here, but 'reason' can also be used to mean justification since in everyday parlance, it is a pretty loose term. Something similar can be said for the words 'why' and 'because'. As I see it, the real distinction is between a cause and a justification. We all more-or-less know what someone means when they say X is the cause of Y. However justification is less clear, so I want to share my understanding of justification (so you know where my mind is at). As I see it, Y (e.g. an action or belief or piece of legislation) requires justification ONLY IF it is held to some standard (perhaps an implicit one). That which does the justifying (i.e. X) does it by showing how X in fact meets that standard. Take a CEO's actions. They are held (by shareholders and others) to the standard of being conducive to the success of the business. If it is unclear to them how one of the CEO's recent actions (say, laying off a rather effective employee) is good for the business, they might ask the CEO to justify his action. The CEO might then say that he was made aware that that employee was planning to leak company secrets. In saying this, he is offering a fact that shows how his action meets the standard it is held to. Note that it follows from this understanding of justification that justification is subjective in the sense that justification is always justification TO SOMEONE. If you and I hold Y to different standards, then when presented with X, Y may be justified TO YOU, though it remains justified to me. And someone who doesn't hold Y to any standard won't even ask for a justification of it in the first place. Note also that for ma

Cognitive and emotional barriers to EA's growth

I'm glad you said so. From now on I'll use well-meaning/ good intentions, and evidence-based good instead.

adamaero6y5

Thanks. This will be useful for a future presentation. Although, I am going to modify challenges 3-6. Using the word "utilitarian" seems...limiting. EA has utilitarian/consequentialist underpinnings--but not a full blown subscription to only that moral system (i.e., not exclusive). But I'm sure you knew that already. (See Macaskill's comment on 'Effective Altruism' as utilitarian equivocation.)

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking something more along the lines as maximizing impact and the empathy-altruism hypothesis related to meaning well (benev... (read more)

2[anonymous]6y

When people ask when EA "started" I'm never sure what to say. But I imagine Geoffrey is referring to when we chose the name with "2011" (see http://effective-altruism.com/ea/5w/the_history_of_the_term_effective_altruism/), plus a quick nod to the longer history in Singer's work with "+ Peter Singer".

DustinWehr

Good points. I don't think "(benevolence)"/"(beneficence)" adds anything, either. Beneficence is effectively EA lingo. You're not going to draw people in by teaching them lingo. Do that a little further into on-boarding.

Why not to rush to translate effective altruism into other languages

How a lazy eater went vegan

Side note - Have you looked at the Wikipedia pages for Effective Altruism in different languages and translated to [English]?

Examples, sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effektiv_altruism ~ marginal impact, opartic thinking, contraceptive thinking. Es.wikipedia.org ~ comparative wealth, etc.

Just something someone here may find interesting.

Why I prioritize moral circle expansion over reducing extinction risk through artificial intelligence alignment

Eventually, though, I worked out a diet plan that would be both healthy and easy to follow.

So do you have that diet plan? Please link.

Announcing Effective Altruism Community Building Grants

I am not trying to "win" anything. I am stating why MIRI is not transparent, and does not deal in scalable issues. As an individual, Earning to Give, it does not follow to fund such things under the guise of Effective Altruism. Existential risk is important to think about and discuss as individuals. However, funding CS grad students does not make sense in the light of Effective Altruism.

Funding does not increase "thinking." The whole point of EA is to not give blindly. For example, giving food aid, although meaning well, can have a very... (read more)

Dunja

Thanks for this discussion, which I find quite interesting. I think the effectiveness and efficiency of funding research projects concerning risks of AI is a largely neglected topic. I've posted some concerns on this below an older thread on MIRI: http://effective-altruism.com/ea/14c/why_im_donating_to_miri_this_year/dce * the primary problem being the lack of transparency on the side of Open Phil. concerning the evaluative criteria used in their decision to award MIRI with an extremely huge grant.