All of Closed Limelike Curves's Comments + Replies

The empirical track record is that the top 3 AI research labs (Anthropic, DeepMind, and OpenAI) were all started by people worried that AI would be unsafe, who then went on to design and implement a bunch of unsafe AIs.

2
NickLaing
1y
100% agree. I'm sometimes confused on this "evidence based" forum as to why this doesn't get the front page attention and traction. At a guess, perhaps some people involved in the forum here are friends, or connected to some of the people involved in these orgs and want to avoid confronting this head on? Or maybe they want to keep good relationships with them so they can still influence them to some degree?

"AI is powerful and uncontrollable and could kill all of humanity, like seriously" is not a complicated message.

Anything longer than 8 morphemes is probably not going to survive Twitter or CNN getting their hands on it. I like the original version ("Literally everyone will die") better.

In what sense? The problem of potential helium scarcity has been (effectively) solved in the last few years by just looking for more helium deposits.

In a sense, we are "running out" (because there's only a finite supply of Helium), we're just running out very, very slowly.

Actually, maybe I should clarify this. This is standard practice when you hire a decent statistician. We've known this since like... the 1940s, maybe?

But a lot of organizations and clinical trials don't do this because they don't consult with a statistician early enough. I've had people come to me and say "hey, here's a pile of data, can you calculate a p-value?" too many times to count. Yes, I calculated a p-value, it's like 0.06, and if you'd come to me at the start of the experiment we could've avoided the million-dollar boondoggle

 that you just created.

You’re completely correct! However, it’s worth noting this is standard practice (when the treatment makes up most of the cost, which it usually doesn’t). Most statisticians will be able to tell you about this.

So I think I have two comments:

  1. It’s actually pretty neat you figured this out by yourself, and shows you have a decent intuition for the subject.
  2. However, if you’re a researcher at any kind of research institution, and you run or design RCTs, this suggests an organizational problem. You’re reinventing the wheel, and need to consult with a statistici
... (read more)
5
Closed Limelike Curves
1y
Actually, maybe I should clarify this. This is standard practice when you hire a decent statistician. We've known this since like... the 1940s, maybe? But a lot of organizations and clinical trials don't do this because they don't consult with a statistician early enough. I've had people come to me and say "hey, here's a pile of data, can you calculate a p-value?" too many times to count. Yes, I calculated a p-value, it's like 0.06, and if you'd come to me at the start of the experiment we could've avoided the million-dollar boondoggle  that you just created.

Could be marketed as a medication for hypersomnia, narcolepsy, chronic fatigue, and ADHD.

There's an EA cause area in this, but it's not tooth-related. Our jaws are perfectly fine. The problem is bad incentives in the healthcare system; dentists get paid to take wisdom teeth out, not to leave them in, so about 90% of wisdom tooth extractions are unnecessary

The mortality rate of anesthesia is not quite negligible; a couple hundred people have died because of anesthesia during wisdom tooth removal, and there's also the risk of infection.

With regard to differing forms of , the article you linked notes:

Despite these minor differences in processing, each of these forms is probably equally effective when equal doses are given.

Which is understating things a bit: All the minor variants will be identical after dissolving in the body -- anyhydrous creatine will become hydrated, and particle size is 0 after the creatine has dissolved. The only (minor) difference is that micronized creatine will dissolve slightly faster if you mix it with a drink, because of the smaller particle size. This can be m... (read more)

I'd rephrase that, maybe. Whether we're asking people to make a change doesn't matter--that's assigning an unearned privilege to old ideas. The reason we have to justify this claim is because it's a claim. If you're saying "I know vegetarianism is healthier," you should be able to explain how you know that.

If you're wondering whether the above studies  leave some room for including fish in your diet: My guess is yes, pescetarianism is likely to be slightly healthier, because of the aforementioned effects of polyunsaturated fats (including omega-3 fatty acids). This is why doctors also recommend the Mediterranean diet a lot, although it's not clear how much of the effect comes from fish and how much from vegetables. Omega-3 supplements definitely help.

The quality of research is already there: See my comment here.

I'm not aware of any newer studies on creatine after the original one that spawned this belief; I will point out the original studies were likely aggressively p-hacked, showed impossible effect sizes, and make very little sense because brain creatine levels are not substantially different between vegetarians and vegans.

Still, it's not completely out of the question there's a real effect. We still want to avoid the fallacy of the one-sided bet. It's definitely possible that vegetarianism causes a... (read more)

3
jacquesthibs
1y
As I said in my comment, I already supplement 5g/day (I've been doing this for 15 years). My concern about supplementation is that it's not clear to me that supplementation works wholly. Even in supplementation, different forms of creatine seem to have different levels of effect. With respect to creatine's impact on cognitive performance: Anyways,  I'm going through papers on Elicit using the prompt, "Does the vegan diet lead to shorter children?" I'm finding mixed results, some say no, some say yes. For example,

With regards to protein: studies consistently show getting enough protein to prevent sarcopenia or other diseases is not especially difficult, and in fact most people get substantially more than the recommended daily allowances. Also important is that consuming animal protein is positively correlated with all-cause mortality, while plant protein is negatively correlated. From what I can tell, though, this is probably because fiber is confounding the results.

Moving on from observational studies and to randomized controlled trials, it's unclear whether prote... (read more)

1
Closed Limelike Curves
1y
If you're wondering whether the above studies  leave some room for including fish in your diet: My guess is yes, pescetarianism is likely to be slightly healthier, because of the aforementioned effects of polyunsaturated fats (including omega-3 fatty acids). This is why doctors also recommend the Mediterranean diet a lot, although it's not clear how much of the effect comes from fish and how much from vegetables. Omega-3 supplements definitely help.

The value of both can both rise or fall, but real estate is only an investment when rented out. Otherwise, it's a durable consumption good.  In particular, the EMH* implies the expected value of buying real estate and renting it out must be equal to the expected return on stocks. Otherwise, people would stop sell stocks (driving their price down, and therefore the rate of return up) and then buy real estate to lease it out.

*While it's entirely plausible the EMH doesn't hold, no analysis arguing this is presented, and I don't think that placing bets on... (read more)

1
ChristianKleineidam
1y
There's plenty of real estate investment that does not depend on the real estate being rented out. That's why laws get passed that require some real estate to be rented out. One of the attributes of real estate is that it's a lot less liquid than stocks and economic theory suggests that market participants should pay a premium for liquidity.  Finally, it's wrong to say that anything with less expected returns than stocks is no investment. People all the time invest money in treasury bonds that have less expected returns.

Not sure, I don’t know all that much about them, unfortunately.

Is Wytham Abbey being used 365 days a year, though? A couple thousand a day is a perfectly reasonable cost for a conference. But why would you need to own a space that large permanently? I’d be just as shocked at the idea of renting out Oxford College’s conference hall 365 days a year. Nobody is having that many conferences.

6
Jan_Kulveit
1y
I noted the same in the following sentence: To get realistic comparisons, you would need to adjust for many other factors sometimes of order 0.3-3x, like occupancy, costs of adjusting venues to your needs, costs of the staff,... For example, if you use your venue 65% of time, you should multiply the mentioned figure by 0.65. What's pushing in the opposite direction is for example this: if you use a rented venue, and often spend 1-2 days before and 1 day after the event on setting it up according to your needs / returning to original state, you need to account for that. For e.g. 5 days event, it can increase the rented venue cost by 20-40%.  How various considerations add up is hard to say in the abstract.   

The calculations there are completely correct under the assumption that the space is being used 365 days a year, which strikes me as wildly implausible. I was working on the assumption the is space used a few days each year. If this space is actually being occupied 100% of the time, I’d gladly retract my criticism.

8
Jay Bailey
1y
The actual usage of the abbey is very likely to be somewhere between these two numbers. Definitely I would expect it to be used far more than for one major conference per year, but I wouldn't expect 100% usage either. 

The question here isn’t whether building a new castle from scratch would cost £15,000,000, or whether the real estate is properly valued; I assume it is. The question is whether you need to buy a castle to host yearly or monthly conferences—to which the answer is clearly not.

Investing £15,000,000 would yield roughly £1,000,000 a year on the stock market. If you are spending a million pounds on the venue for a conference, you are not doing it right. A convention hall runs in the tens of thousands of dollars, not the millions. This is a 10-100x markup.

£15,000,000 sounds like a lot to a researcher because it is.

6
Edward Kmett
1y
In my experience from actually renting  spaces to run tech conferences and events, a convention hall in a reasonably dense city runs in the tens of thousands for a single <5 day long event. Consider just 3 breakout rooms, typically ~$90-$180/room/hour, 8 hours a day, 5 days takes you into the $20-$40k range, that gets you no food, no lodging for attendees, once you add that stuff in and the all-in cost for a fully-paid for typical 30-40 person event can easily land just inside $80-100k, with costs growing slightly sublinearly per person for a while before they balloon again once you rise above the size where there are multiple competing venues in your area. If the convention center you are using isn't a hotel now you have to move your attendees back and forth.  For tech conferences you can charge a few hundred $ per person, and have them book with your hotel out of a bloc, incurring obligations from your org to a hotel about occupancy, and then you can generally come up with a way to make your event break even. Conferences are expensive for a reason.  Locating an event in the middle of nowhere? Maybe that room becomes maybe a fixed rate $350 space at a cheaper hotel, $1000/day for 3 becomes so $5k for a 5 day event, but now its harder to get folks to the venue. At the end of the day, in either of these scenarios you are subsidizing the hotel and event space industry rather than focusing in on your events. On the other hand, using the model of a typical CFAR event, using a venue that is already owned, you are dealing with some cleanup, a couple of members of the team providing operations support, catering costs, but the venue itself remains relatively customized to purpose. People can sleep on site, enabling folks to drift in and out of conversations, the event can run all night with people talking in smaller more intimate groups long past when a hotel would have kicked you out of the space. If your goal is to built a community and have folks come together, this

I refuse to believe that renting out a conference hall would actually have cost more.

Investing £15,000,000 a year would yield roughly £1,000,000 a year on the stock market. If you are spending a million pounds on the venue alone for a 1,000 person conference, you are not doing it right. A convention hall typically runs in the tens of thousands of dollars, not the millions. This is a 100x markup.

This comment suggests that renting conference venues in Oxford can be pretty expensive:

https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/xof7iFB3uh8Kc53bG/why-did-cea-buy-wytham-abbey?commentId=3yeffQWcRFvmeteqc

Your cost estimates seems to be in the wrong order of magnitude.

A typical researcher might make £100,000 a year. £15,000,000 is roughly £1,000,000 a year if invested in the stock market. So you could hire 5 researchers to work full-time, in perpetuity.

Conferences are cool, but do you really think they generate as much research as 5 full time researchers would? As a researcher, I can tell you flat-out the answer is no. I could do much more with 5 people working for me than I could by going to even a thousand conferences.

9
Ben Millwood
1y
You can't always turn more money into more researchers. You need people who can mentor and direct them, and you need to find people who are good fits for the position, and most of the people who are most interesting to you are also interesting to other employers. In general, I don't think finding salaries for such people was the bottleneck.
2
ChristianKleineidam
1y
Investing money into the stock market and investing money into real estate are similar. In both cases, the value of your capital can rise or fall over time. 
1
particlemania
1y
What do you think about MSRI (https://www.msri.org/web/cms) and Simons Institute (https://simons.berkeley.edu/), btw?

Certainly makes sense to bring in PR resources, but let’s be clear that much worse ethical scandals than “One rich guy who donated to this turned out to have committed fraud” have frequently failed to destroy social movements. This will probably hurt EA, but is unlikely to permanently ruin its reputation unless it leads EAs to disaffiliate themselves from the movement to avoid negative PR—i.e. if most of its supporters are more concerned about optics and signaling than doing good.

The only way EA can be destroyed is if EAs, not non-EAs, abandon it.

…is what you tell yourself before you get exposed for committing massive fraud, costing far more billions than you ended up with.

If SBF did commit fraud, it looks like he did it to keep Alameda from going bankrupt. If that’s the case, he ended up destroying billions of dollars of potential donations from FTX. “Take a risk that might let you earn a billion dollars illegally” and “Make 0 dollars” are not your only options here! You could have taken not-illegal risks that might have won big instead. Those tend to have higher EV.

>The egoistic motivation for donating is highly scope insensitive – giving away $500 feels roughly as good as giving away $50,000. I haven’t found any academic evidence on this, but it’s been robustly true in my experience.

There's academic evidence and it disagrees; the amount of donations matters. (It's nonlinear, but so is the effect of spending on anything.) I suppose you could probably increase it by giving smaller amounts more frequently--having a tiny notification on your computer that goes "Congrats on donating $10!" or whatever.

I suppose the long-term future doesn't exist because AGI got to it first.

Many studies have been done on this in econometrics; very few of them are good.

I think there are two tacks to take here, depending on whether your goal is reducing racial disparities or addressing discrimination itself.

1. Because of the heavy focus on poverty in developing countries, donations to normal EA charities also serve to reduce international racial disparities. The development gap between Africa and the rest of the world is strongly tied to colonial policies designed to enrich European countries at the expense of majority-black countries.

2. If you want to focus on racial discrimination, I'd suggest charities aiming to p... (read more)

4
Denkenberger
4y
Has anyone seen a study on how much of the income gap is due to colonialism?
3
Will Bradshaw
4y
Good answer. Helping refugees of ethnic cleansing is a good way to go here, I think.

No worries! I'm always happy to help out. The main things are:

1. It's true that MMT usually recognizes that excess aggregate demand from money printing leads to increases in prices. The main error that MMT makes here is in saying that it is always possible to avoid default by printing money, even if it causes hyperinflation, so that the true constraint on government spending is its willingness to accept inflation, not its ability to continue making interest payments. The Chicago MMT question may have been poorly worded.

2. I think that these obser... (read more)

If you want me to summarize the mainstream response to MMT, though, here it is:

It's true that countries don't have to "Pay back" their debt in the sense of going to $0 debt – but then neither do companies, or even people (Think of elderly retirees with reverse mortgages). However, this is very different from saying that there's not a budget constraint on a country's ability to spend. In reality, there are two.

One is savings. A country needs to borrow to finance a deficit. If you have too much debt, you can't find ... (read more)

4
AslanP
4y
Thanks - appreciate the response and explanation. Always nice to get clear 'Yes'/'No' response to a question! To play the other side, isn't the mainstream response you've described really strawmanning MMT though? First, on the inflation point, as I note in the body of the main post, MMT still says that there is a point at which additional money cause inflation, because an economy is already at its then-current productive capacity and therefore the money does not stimulate further production. This would explain the Venezuala example. This is also what I was referring to in the main post when I said that the IGM Chicago Survey doesn't seem like it asks fair questions about MMT - e.g. the position put to various economists as representing MMT was that "Countries that borrow in their own currency can finance as much real government spending as they want by creating money". On my read, that's not a fair reflection of what MMT-advocates would say. And isn't it consistent with MMT's theory re inflation that despite the massive quantitative easing programs during and after the GFC, including in the US and Japan, haven't necessarily led to increased inflation as might have been predicted. Or, to focus on the present example, given the amount of new capital being injected into the economy, is the mainstream expectation that we will see a spike in inflation soon? If we don't, should that cause us to question the existing models? Second, on the 'capacity to borrow' point, isn't what's happening now that the Federal Reserve is simply buying Treasury bonds? It seems to me like, if that can happen, there's a captive market for Treasury bonds and perhaps no need to worry that you'll fail to find a lender. I appreciate that, from the sound of things, you know what you're talking about when it comes to economics, so please don't take the above questions as me trying to argue about something that I don't understand. I recognise that I don't fully understand this area and am ask

The short answer to this post's title is "No." All of the policies you have described fall under traditional macroeconomic stimulus, of the kind economists have understood since the time of Keynes.

I believe what you've gotten here is a very pop-econ kind of thing that ends up being reported in media, but is a terrible summary of the actual state of knowledge in economics. It's the sort of thing that people who are very smart but haven't specialized in the field will tend to pick up from reading on Wikipedia, which has an unfor... (read more)

If you want me to summarize the mainstream response to MMT, though, here it is:

It's true that countries don't have to "Pay back" their debt in the sense of going to $0 debt – but then neither do companies, or even people (Think of elderly retirees with reverse mortgages). However, this is very different from saying that there's not a budget constraint on a country's ability to spend. In reality, there are two.

One is savings. A country needs to borrow to finance a deficit. If you have too much debt, you can't find ... (read more)