All of JohannWolfgang's Comments + Replies

Also do administrators profit from more crimes in a public system? It of course increases the demand for administrators, but I don't see how it would increase the salary of a significant number of them.

Not really, but that's besides the point.

Actually, I was referring to a point you made in an earlier comment:

So a lobbying prison (1) benefits from more inmates in the future, [...]. Points 1 and 2 are the same under the current prison system.

So do we both agree that (1) does not hold in the current system?

I would assume that for a private prison that has become good at its business the benefits of more inmates would outweigh the liabilities and that at some point it would (in principle, ignoring the free rider problem for a moment) become easier to increase the profits by increasing the revenue by making more things illegal than trying to reduce the reoffending rate. Also do administrators profit from more crimes in a public system? It of course increases the demand for administrators, but I don't see how it would increase the salary of a significant number... (read more)

2
FCCC
2y
Ignoring the free-rider problem ("problem" being from the perspective of the prison), as the prison gets more and more current/former inmates, it becomes harder for that cost-benefit calculation to make sense. With no change in the law or the performance of the prison, the prison's liabilities will grow until the point at which the current/former inmates who die are are as numerous incoming inmates. So for lobbying to make financial sense, it would probably have to occur soon after the prison is started or soon after the system is implemented. But that time is also when the prison has the least information about their own competence (in terms of rehabilitation and auction pricing). Not really, but that's besides the point. The point is that they don't benefit from rehabilitating their inmates. They don't benefit from firing abusive guards. They don't benefit from reading the latest literate on inmate rehabilitation and creating policies that reduce the chance of their inmates re-offending. I don’t know much about insurance, but I think you can write pretty much whatever contract you like, as long as no laws are broken.

a lot of german students seem to not take their studies very seriously, so the percentage of students registered at the university that would invest significant time in a local group is reduced before even looking at things like value alignment and stuff.

That does not seem to be a problem for all the uni politics groups? Also, maybe we could turn this into a selling point? I personally find EA stuff so much more interesting than my studies.

3
Yannick_Muehlhaeuser
2y
I meant it more in the sense that students might either not even attend university on a regular basis or not be at a point where they don't really value intellectual pursuits that much. Or they might just be registered at the university for some  legal and administrative privileges.  But your right, in one sense it also can be an advantage. 

I think of federalism and further European integration as opposite ideas. More integration means moving towards having a single point of failure where we currently have 27. For instance, the commission bungled the acquisition of vaccines in 2020. Consequently, vaccination rates in the European Union lagged behind those in Britain by about one month (see this graph).

Neither do I think that joint investments in AI and climate joint require further integration, but I guess it would strengthen the European position wrt foreign policy.

Also I would like to point out that although catheters are still bad, they are much better that what we used to have, which proves improvements possible and this is more important to tractability than today's dire situation.

I checked the numbers thinking that a 1 to 100 ratio in your example should be much larger, that actually the trade-off should be more like 1 to 10000. Turns out that is not the case. If 9% of the world's population is over 65 (I assume you wanted to compare a person's possible impact on aging with their possible impact on the bladder), the ratio is more like 1 to 11. So I have to retract my statement that peeing is on the same scale as aging and poverty. That being said, I still think this is a very important issue and while the most effective p... (read more)

Honestly, I can't blame them in either case. I suppose the joke is not funny if you don't know the original and the EA community is open enough to new, unusual ideas that it might attract the sort of crazy people who actually think removing the bladder is a good idea. Also, I told everybody who prove-read the post that it was intended as a parody. Maybe otherwise that is entirely non-obvious. And obviously compared to the normal content on the forum it might be seen as a waste of time to read this.

4
JasperGo
4y
Pretty sure people get the reference but just think that you're mocking longevity research without making a good point. A disclaimer would've helped.

Thank you for your comment. I agree that poverty, animal welfare and aging are more intense forms of suffering and they should definetely addressed by the EA community and in fact they already are (aging maybe not as much as the others). When I wrote that the bladder is a large-scale problem, I literally meant scale in a narrow sense: every of all 7.8 billion has to pee say 7 times a day. That means that we, as a species, have to undergo this annoying thing almost 20 trillion times a year. That is why is think that, even multiplying with the low intensity,... (read more)

4
kokotajlod
4y
I agree that peeing etc. happens a lot and that a large quantity of minor suffering can sometimes be more important than a smaller quantity of intense suffering. However I think that in this case the things I mentioned -- poverty, aging, etc. -- are overall much more important. Consider: What would happen if we polled people and asked them "What if you had the choice between two pills, one of which would keep you young and healthy until you died by some non-natural cause, and another of which would magically eliminate your pee and poop so you never had to go to the bathroom. Which would you choose?" I'd bet the vast majority of people would choose the first pill if they chose any pill at all. Now imagine asking similar questions about poverty... I'm pretty sure people would rather pee and poop than be poor. Much rather. Similarly, consider asking people to choose between giving the no-pee-or-poop-pills to 100 people, or helping 1 person to stay healthy for just a mere 10 more years. I'm pretty sure almost everyone would say the morally correct choice is the second one. All this to say, I feel pretty confident in my judgment that eliminating poverty, aging, etc. is way more important than eliminating pee & poop etc. I'm glad to hear you talk about catheters -- they are indeed much more tractable. However, my understanding is that people who use them are usually happy to stop using them; this suggests that they are actually less comfortable, more degrading, etc. than our usual bodily functions! I totally buy that it's possible for society to change its norms around peeing pooping etc. and decide that we should eliminate it. Like you said, society changes its opinions on things like this every century or so. However, the question is how much control we have over society's opinions on this. And while I think we do have some (small) amount of influence, I think we'd better use that influence to change society's opinions about other things, like the moral status of farm

The payoffs for the prison don't exist, but that might be fixed - at least to some extent - by introducing premiums and there are payoffs for the state. Although states are not as constrainted for funding as private companies, the costs of imprisonments have not gone unnoticed.

Another perverse incentive: campaign for making more offenses punishable by prison sentences.

3
FCCC
4y
No, I don't think this is a problem. The prisons are competing against each other, not acting as a single, unified block. Why would a prison spend money on making something illegal (through lobbying) when they still have to outbid their opponents? Not only that, prisons would also have an additional liability to pay for their existing prisoners who might commit these new crimes after their release.

Thank you for the clarifications.

But there are people who are informed enough to be willing to make a bet on the matter.

According to Peter's comment, there already seem to be many informed people around working both inside and outside the prison system. Maybe it would be sufficient incentivize them better to make those bets, by introducing premiums for prisons that reduce the number of reconvictions of their previous inmates, taking into account some priors how likely they were to recidivate based on what their crime was and socio-economic backgroun... (read more)

First, two rather technical notes: in your graphics you have areas represent both positive (assuming the future contribution might be positive) and negative figures, which is confusing IMO. If the second figure is to represent net contribution, maybe state that explicitly. Also, I don't understand one of the formulae, namely

I thought and I don't see why or did I miss something?


Then, though I get your approach's theoretical appeal,... (read more)

2
FCCC
4y
The graphs show what is encapsulated by what. The area to which a label corresponds is the smallest convex shape that encapsulates the label. For example, M is the whole lower-left quadrant, which also encapsulates the monetary effect of crimes (which is why the monetary effect of crimes is not explicitly included in the formulas). M doesn't stand for all monetary factors. It stands for every monetary factor except Funding. If the convict pays tax, that's a good thing for society (all else being equal). Π should increase. And it does, since more tax means a higher M. If the convict has to use welfare, that's bad. Π should decrease. And it does, since you get a lower M. If the convict's incarceration requires more funding, that's bad (all else being equal). Π should decrease. And it does, since funding is subtracted. And so on. There is part of the graph that is not included in Π: The nonmonetary effects that are not crimes. One of my simplifying assumptions was to ignore this section ("Let us ignore Bob’s other nonmonetary contributions for simplicity.") This system has an advantage over public prisons in that it provides a mechanism to choose which research should be pursed. Should we trial inmates wearing pink uniforms? Is that worth the cost of research or not? I don't know. But there are people who are informed enough to be willing to make a bet on the matter. The people who believe strongly that they can get good outcomes will make those bets. If they're wrong, they lose money and leave the market. If they're right, they make money and gain a greater share of control. One thing I want to note: I'm not saying "Implement the system as I've described by next month". I think the system is something to carefully work towards.
2
peter_janicki
4y
There is a lot of research done in forensic psychology/psychiatry as to which offenders have which rates of reoffending (and how that rate can be reduced). There are instruments like the HCR20, the Psychopathy Checklist, the SVR20, etc. In Germany there are nice statistics about which released groups do commit the same/different crimes with which rates of recidivism. I am pretty sure, other countries have comparable stats. The rates are well below 50%, but we only have some 80 persons out of a hundred thousand behind bars, in the united states that number is nearly ten times higher, so people get faster into those (mostly private?/ profit orientated?) prisons. My guess would be: get fewer people into prisons (than in the united states), get them therapy if needed (for example reasoning and rehabilitation aka r&r) and most important: give them good aftercare (possibilities).