-7 karmaJoined Feb 2023


Glad to hear it.

But I think it's probably a psychological fact that if a group of critics keeps calling your ideas some combination of "moral corruption", "the dumbest idea", "excuses for the rich" and "white supremacist/fascist"[2], then you'll probably just stop responding to their work.

I understand. I never take this stuff personally myself. I even think it's more important to engage with criticism (provided you are headstrong for it - at that time and place) if it's espescially disagreeable/ hostile.

I haven't read Crary but it's on my list. The headline for McGoey's piece is quite harsh, but there's no real nice way to say some of these things (e.g. "excuses for the rich" isn't that much nicer from what Kemp says about EA being captured by billionaire interests). These critics sincerely hold these positions - whilst it's head for us to hear - it wouldn't be right for them to water down their criticisms either.

And ultimately, doesn't EA deserve harsh criticism, with the spate of scandals that have emerged & emerging? If it's ultimately good for EA in the end - bring it on! More critcism is good.

I see where you're coming form, but I do see libertarianism as the thread that unerpins all these scandals together.

Thiel has described himself as a conservative libertarian in the past, but yes his politics are more conservative overall now. But I make the point that surveillance/authoritarianism is not incompatible with libertarian view, and Bostrom was a an Extropian 

SBF's "problem" also includes his activities for cryptocurrency adoption, which if embraced, could have caused widespread problems in the financial system. And I want to stress, cryptocurrency scandals in EA have been broader than just SBF (e.g. Ben Delo, Avraham Eisenberg). I want to stress that the cryptocurrency scandal in EA is not just SBF, but more systematic.

Hi Linch, sorry for the confusion. I that comment was not spceifically about certain people, and I never named SBF, Bostrom etc.

I was more referring to the general communities of people who are interested in those respective areas as being libertarians. Example, there are many EAs working in cryptocurrency and they tend to be libertarian. Many EAs have expressed interest in Race-IQ differences  on the forum, not just Bostrom. Cryptocurrency, Race-IQ differences, and polyamory tend to be libertarian dominated areas of fascination.

I do believe SBF donated large sums to Republicans. And Bostrom's views seem to accord well with right-libertarians like Peter Thiel. I bring this up because Thiel has not been shy of using surveillance, having founded Palantir. Bostrom was also a member of Extropians with known libertarian links.

But I don't really want to be speculating on these specific individuals political views, but make the broader point that those areas of itnerest are assosciated with libertarians.

Thank you JWS. Really appreciate your comments.

For example, I find it very difficult to see Crary's criticism of EA as being in good faith, and I don't think this is just because she's not framing her arguments in EA language/terms, but even when EA is critical of the Left, I don't think we call Leftism "a straightforward case of moral corruption".

I have seen some EA's accuse certain critiques as bad faith where I found them the opposite, and have seen attacks on Leftists (e.g. leftmism would make EA less analytical in the above comment). So I think a lot of this is due to differences in worldview/perspective.

But I certainly agree that there are some critiques of EA that are genuinely poorly done.

In terms of critiques I like:

But also in terms of left wing EA support, Garrison Lovely, Rutger Bregman, & Habiba of 80K.

Sorry  Richard, I meant no disrepsect. And I appreciate you acknowledging that there are leftsist EAs.

Without wanting to do guilt-by-association, I simply wanted to express that there would have been a clear benefit to having a more left-wing EA, since leftists are more critical of cryptocurrencies etc. There were many EAs who did the right thing warning about cryptocurrency/SBF, but they were smaller in number, and overlooked by the community. So apologies I went too far maligning all libertarians/non-leftists.