All of Cienna's Comments + Replies

Thanks! Now it makes sense how a decree would help. I imagine some additional culture shift would be needed to make sure that the kids weren't still under a lot of pressure, just less overt. 

Neat about the alcohol sachets! 

I don't see how "decreeing minimum sleep" would work. Why aren't the high school students getting enough sleep? Are they also working jobs? Do they live far away from the schools? 

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NickLaing
Sorry I forget  there's a bunch of context I forget to lay out   Maybe 80% of high schools here are boarding schools, that's what I'm talking about.  So  most of these these boarding schools force the students to get up at 4:00am-5:00am to prepare ,and work until 10pm in the evening. It sounds crazy but the schools honestly think this torrid regime will get better results for their students.  Of course students end up trying to steal extra sleep wherever they can, just to get by. With 2 students we were helping with high school where I think this contributed to serious mental health problems at the school, and one ended up leaving school.

Meta: looks like this is Skye's first post on the EA Forum. Welcome, Skye! Thanks for your courage in posting this! 

3
Jon Servello
To echo this, I'm grateful to Skye for raising the topic here and providing an opening for the discussion between harfe, Lauren, and Linch.  I hope that Skye wasn't dissuaded by the criticism, because I think there is a strong case that certain aspects of children's advocacy are (currently) more tractable in developed countries. We have lots of examples of changes to the law in favour of children happening via established institutions. Differences between regional legal systems need to be taken into account, but to provide an interesting example from the UK: section 58 of the Children Act 2004 specifies that hitting a child can be justified by a parent or guardian as long as it is "reasonable punishment" and doesn't amount to "actual bodily harm" (long-term injury). This was revoked by the Children Act 2019 in Scotland and in 2020 in Wales,  with each taking a couple of years to come into effect. Now children effectively have the same legal protection from assault and battery as adults in these countries, including from their parents. Any EAs based in the UK with any inclination towards national-scale advocacy  would be well placed to push for similar changes in England and Northern Ireland. How these acts came about might also make an interesting case study for possible replication in other places -- and to determine if these problems are "neglected" enough for EAs. I haven't read the history, but I suspect national charities like Barnado's and the NSPCC along with  international organisations like UNICEF were involved to varying degrees.  I also agree with the broader thrust of Skye's post that children almost universally lack the legal and political framework to represent their own interests, so it is up to adults to advocate for them. Even if we can show that conditions are worse for children along most metrics in developing countries (as Lauren puts forward well), I still think  children would be worth advocating for in developed countries for the right EAs.

(Writing in cluelessness from the USA) I accept the argument for importance, and notice myself defaulting to considering the problem intractable because I don't know how tractable it is to meaningfully improve school safety in Uganda. Will you please share more about how hard it might be, and what it would take, to make this better? 

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NickLaing
Thanks Cienna! I'm sure you are far from clueless :) Like with any large scale policy issue, tractability is a big issue - but in this kind of case I have a couple of vaguely similar examples which show that it could well be tractable.  I'm an enormous fan of advocacy and actvism as one of the most cost effective ways to solve specific, clear problems, perhaps even a bigger fan than most effective altruists as I've seen my wife succeed spectacularly a couple of times at least. My wife worked on something 5 years ago which has some similarity in that it was a policy that was changed, having a big positve effect. Her and a community group from scratch managed to get a local district level law passed to effectively ban alcohol "sachets", tiny  50ml plastic bags of heavy spirits of varying qualities. 2 years later later this was followed up with a nation al ban. This was based on both strong community will to ban the sachets as they could see the enormous harm caused by them, and a large amount of research that shows if you increase the quantity of the minimum size unit of alcohol (e.g. from 50 to 150ml like what happened here) , you hugely lower the damage done by alcohol. Also the banning of lead paint thing in Malawi has some similarities in that it's a harmful policy being overturned through government advocacy, and that seems to be going pretty well. https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/ErKzbKWnQMwvzRX4m/seven-things-that-surprised-us-in-our-first-year-working-in What it would take (for example the high school sleep issue) specifically is advocacy to the ministry of education to pass a local (district wide) or national ordinance decreeing minimum sleep in a high school, then ensuring enforcement (harder than getting the law passed). The physical abuse of primary school children would be much harder as it is culturally ingrained - it's such a well known and horrible issue there are in fact a number of BINGOS (big international NGOs like world vision etc.) d

I agree that reducing childhood trauma in the USA looks quite tractable, and that it's not as neglected as other issues. Examples of things which are happening:

1. There's already work being done to understand, prevent, and overcome Adverse Childhood Experiences (notably in California, under Surgeon General Nadine Burke Harris). ACEs are dose-dependent, with people who report more childhood trauma having worse health outcomes, including a higher risk of early death

2. the intactivist movement appears to be making progress over the last decade on shift... (read more)

Answer by Cienna1
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DonorsChoose (recommended by an Experiment friend). I haven’t seen yet whether these projects do report back, but the infrastructure is there for following up about whether the project went as expected.

I used to do transcribing with timestamps. I met some cool people and learned a lot about the topics I was working on that way. It was a good remote flex-time freelance job for me at 20. I rarely do transcription work anymore, but I would be happy to do a call about what I learned and my setup with anyone considering this line of work.

RE #3, the company's website includes a helpful infographic. It sounds like they added an optogenetic control on the Z chromosome (I couldn't find anything more specific than that). The breeding hens contain one altered and one normal Z chromosome, and the breeding roosters are normal. Female chicks receive a normal W from their mother and a normal Z from their father and are "wild-type", but male chicks receive an edited Z chromosome from their mother and a normal Z chromosome from their father. Shining blue light on all the eggs "deactivates" the edited ... (read more)

Oooh, I'm hopeful this technology could be used for identifying insect stings too! Insect antivenom faces some similar challenges.

If you had other small predators around to keep the rodent populations in check, such as weasels and hawks, maybe you could get away with removing snakes. Rodent population booms are undesirable because rodents carry diseases which can be infect humans, pets, and livestock. Rodent poison isn't a good alternative because the poisons also kill scavengers (dogs, owls, etc.) that eat the poisoned rodents, and are harmful at sub-lethal doses. Birds of prey  aren't enough to keep a rodent population in check because they can't access most of the places wher... (read more)

What interaction experience are you wishing for, which you imagine an app would provide? 

Fungal infections are also large contributors to the recent declines in bat and amphibian populations. 

RE nature walks, I’ve found personally that I get a lot more perspective and relief when I’m somewhere it smells really “green”. A thickly verdant yard is better than an impoverished forest. I think it may have something to do with what the plants give off: a small, full greenhouse has that restorative effect on me without the walking.

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Ben Williamson
Plant/ green space exposure definitely has a significant effect on its own, possibly in part through the smell given off.

(No biomed background, just an avid reader of science news) Maybe you already ruled this out based on your specifics, but could lab-grown mini-organs be a suitable third option for your experimental ideas? That in-between choice might offer an end-run around both the mouse-to-human translation problem and the overhead and slowness of experimenting with human subjects within the time frame of a Master’s. Caveats: your estimate of the moral status of mini-brains, the smaller existing knowledge base of how to care for them and interpret results, and possibly cost. I don’t know if there are existing mini-organ models for Alzheimer’s as there are mouse models, sorry.

1
Snippyro
Interesting idea. Neuron cell cultures exist but are delicate & hard to work with; working with mice is on the organism and not cell level but is closer to it than human cognitive research. Probably not one of the options for an M.A. but can very much be considered for the rest of our careers. 

I was missing something important before about the aspirational nature of a flag.  While the star held something true about there being actually hard, knock-out problems to solve along the way, I think the inevitability of the star-less version is more suitably aspirational. 

There is not one singular problem to solve, there are many, and the other shapes already hold that. With the star, I had put an oppositional teleology before the indefinite striving for betterment, and that was out of order. That was more 'per ardua ad astra,' "through advers... (read more)

I'm interested in writing about this with someone; anybody interested in writing arguments with me about why biodiversity matters? I don't expect it to make the leaderboard of urgent problems, but as a slow important problem I think it's a contender.

Here's a sketch of the argument that convinced me: we want our life support system to handle as many challenges as it can on its own, with as little maintenance as possible. Nature is not a closed system, so the challenges are multi-factor and co-occurring. High biodiversity provides already established stabili... (read more)

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Rick Baker
I found this comment (and the post by Danny) really interesting and helpful. I am new to EA and have been persuaded by its arguments to donate to the Malaria Consortium. But I am also an environmental economist and an surprised by the EA communities apparent lack of interest in biodiversity (while acknowledging that some of the other commenters' points re comparative importance and whether it is overly neglected may have some validity).  One issue that interests me is the potential to make environmental interventions (both investments and regulations) more effective. EA examples like it being 1,000s of times more effective to donate to preventing or curing blindness than donating to training guide dogs are important. I think this scale of improvement in effectiveness is possible with environmental interventions. In both areas wildly inefficient interventions can be supported because people are sometimes satisfied by things that sound good or signal their concern, with little or no thought to maximising impact.  In short, I think that: *  the EA community should consider rating the importance of biodiversity more highly * EA-type  thinking could be used to make biodiversity interventions much more effective . I am not sure what would be involved in writing arguments with you about this or whether I would be suited to doing this, but I'm happy to talk .

Result: This project came in second place and won the $750 prize, per update here.

@rory_greig, do you know where systems thinkers converse?  

I haven’t found a communication nexus, but I’d love to hear about it if there is one! Looks like there are some Facebook groups and a LinkedIn group, but I don’t know how active they are. Most of the activity I’ve seen is in a closed Keybase group.

I’ve run into at least half a dozen other systems mindset folks who have heard a little about EA and want to know more. We tried to set up a learning discussion during Complexity Weekend but got stuck on scheduling conflicts. Cross-pollinating might look like someone who practices both presenting at a Heartbeat event, or for an EA group organizer to volunteer as a Complexity Weekend organizer. 

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Cienna
@rory_greig, do you know where systems thinkers converse?  
Answer by Cienna6
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Systems thinking shares the question: where and how can one intervene to achieve large improvement for small investment, minimize off-target effects, and have the improvement actually stick instead of revert?

1
emwalz
I'm glad you mentioned this - I was just in conversation with another EA/systems thinking advocate and we saw some valuable potential to cross pollinate. Where are you based? We may scheme a bit on how to create intersection points if you'd be interested.
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Nathan Young
Where would I find systems thinkers? Do they have a forum or whatever?

Thank you very much for writing this up!  
- This 2010 paper estimates that over 100 newborn boys die in the US annually from circumcision and related complications. 
- Alexithymia, poor recognition of one's emotions, is another condition that may result from circumcision. Paper here. I wonder if the stereotype of American men being out of touch with their emotions is related to this? 
- RE sentience: Intact America claims that as adults, some men still remember the experience of being circumcised as infants. Cross-check: some adults still reme... (read more)

Answer by Cienna1
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https://www.buckinstitute.org/education/graduate/ The Buck Institute in Novato, CA, USA has some master’s programs, not sure about the duration.

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freedomandutility
Thank you!
Answer by Cienna7
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I've worked in indoor air quality for three years and I'm not aware of any products that capture CO2 below the industrial scale, unfortunately. If you come across anything, I'd love to know! 

I've tried the indoor plants approach and tested CO2 levels with Kitagawa tubes, and all the data showed was when the HVAC system was running... There are already lots of plants outdoors, and they're lower-maintenance there, so it's worth checking whether your HVAC system could be doing its job better of bringing outdoor plant-enrichened air to you.
- Are the filte... (read more)

I asked Dr. Sebastiano and he has confirmed yes, he is a WDA member. As of a 6 AM ET on 6/21, he says the project is running a close third.

Fine print question: is Manrico Sebastiano, the principal investigator, a WDA member? If not, the prizes would be $1000 and $500 respectively, per the challenge grant terms here: https://experiment.com/grants/wda2021 

Fun fact for readers: if you too have a wildlife health project idea, this Wildlife Disease Association challenge grant is recurring on Experiment.com! I think this is at least the fourth time. 

At time of writing, this project is in second place by number of backers (47).

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Cienna
I asked Dr. Sebastiano and he has confirmed yes, he is a WDA member. As of a 6 AM ET on 6/21, he says the project is running a close third.
Answer by Cienna3
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If he’s seeking to work directly in Gambia on development, perhaps becoming an agricultural researcher or adviser - like an ag extension agent - would be a way for an individual to help many people in his community. According to Access Gambia’s agriculture page, 80% of the population work in agriculture. Considering the difficulty of the short rainy season, maybe he could identify additional crops, specific cultivars, cover crops, co-plantings, or techniques well-suited to the local particulars that would increase agricultural productivity.

http://www.accessgambia.com/information/farming-agriculture.html

Thank you - exploring GlobalGiving now. I'd love to hear about your experience practicing, if you're willing to share!

Another possibility for your list: getting family members who disagree politically to donate together to a common cause?

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Eric Neyman
This is a cool idea that we hadn't considered. Thank you!

A more abstract one with some similar pieces...

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RyanCarey
Same energy as:

Continuing to play with the space, light cone, time, warning light, and blue dot elements, here's another. I'm not trying to symbolize longtermism specifically here, but I do think this arrangement fits something present.  

Colors

I like the thinking behind the color choices in the original, so I tried to do that too.

- Eigengrau instead of black: Eigengrau is the almost-black color humans see when we close our eyes in darkness, darkness as perceived by human vision. It's black with visual artifacts of uncountably many points of light. It rhymes with how... (read more)

I was missing something important before about the aspirational nature of a flag.  While the star held something true about there being actually hard, knock-out problems to solve along the way, I think the inevitability of the star-less version is more suitably aspirational. 

There is not one singular problem to solve, there are many, and the other shapes already hold that. With the star, I had put an oppositional teleology before the indefinite striving for betterment, and that was out of order. That was more 'per ardua ad astra,' "through advers... (read more)

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Cienna
A more abstract one with some similar pieces...
2
Larks
This is a pretty stylish flag, and I liked the thought process behind it. I must admit that when I first saw it I thought it looked like the sort of flag the villains would have though! Would it be possible to check out how it might look if the central star was blue? I feel like the middle bit instinctually represents 'us', and we want to be the good guys.

Here's the link to the SVG. I don't think you should have to pay for an SVG. I downloaded the JPG and put it through vectorizer.io. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4fvviw1s3yveeri/Longtermist-Flag.svg?dl=0

And here's a TED talk I really enjoyed about flag design: https://www.ted.com/talks/roman_mars_why_city_flags_may_be_the_worst_designed_thing_you_ve_never_noticed

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Cullen 🔸
Thanks; wasn't even aware it was a thing one could do :-)

Congratulations to y’all on your new roles and responsibilities!!!

Answer by Cienna9
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Higher sensitivity and standards. People in these communities take life, responsibility, long-term planning, and suffering more seriously than usual. Some are waiting longer for the sake of being a better parent when they do have kids. It's emotionally intense, living in constant empathic contact with another person who has full depth of feeling and perception, but who starts out with little skill at reasoning, shielding, or emotional self-regulation. I'm told one doesn't fully grasp the seriousness and scope of the project until after the kids have arrive... (read more)

I like this project shape: trying to keep a solved problem solved. We have functioning reefs to study. We already know some of the conditions they like. Our knowledge might not have to be as thorough to protect a system that is already working at scale compared to the level of knowledge needed to design, launch, and scale a solution to an unsolved problem. 

RE "Are there still people to fund... in this space?"
https://experiment.com/projects/joining-efforts-of-local-actors-to-imporove-marine-monitoring-program-of-coral-communities 
Here's a small one! This Experiment.com crowdfunding project is open until 2/18. An existing reef health monitoring program seeks supplemental funding to train volunteer divers from Adventure Scientists so they can expand their area. 

This may be a good opportunity to ask professionals in the area about challenges to their work, since they'll already be expecting to answer q... (read more)

A brief answer from NOAA: "Coral reefs provide coastal protection for communities, habitat for fish, and millions of dollars in recreation and tourism, among other benefits." Like jetties and quays, reefs dissipate wave energy, lessening the impact of storms on the shore and coastal investments. Young and small fish can hide from larger fish in the nooks and crevices of reefs, helping more of them to reach adulthood and build up fishery stock. 

Reef Resilience has additional numbers and citations under the "Economic Value" tab if you're curious! 

Another type of related existing project is government-side community engagement tools, such as https://publicinput.com/. Their software makes it easier for city governments to ask questions and seek feedback from their residents. I know Jay started out with the goal of trying to get elected representatives in direct conversational contact with their constituents, and I think it'd be worth asking him why he went this direction instead. 

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apatel
Thanks for the tip! I'll try contacting him through the website you linked--it would be great to hear more from people who have attempted this sort of project before.

I think there’s another source of jadedness: things being made unnecessarily difficult. I was explicitly told in school by instructors, “we’re going to make this harder than it needs to be, in arbitrary ways, because real life is like that sometimes, and you need to figure out how to handle it psychologically. Better that you learn to deal with pointless assignments and needlessly difficult problems and petty teammates and vague instructions now than in a job.” Being forewarned made it bearable, I was even grateful for it. And then I forgot this when I cha... (read more)

Hmm. I apologize, I don’t actually know whether idealists and virtue signalers differ in productivity. I think the motivation matters for what someone will put up with on the way to their goals; maybe some problems are easier for virtue signalers to solve.

How would you separate the genuine idealists from the virtue signalers?

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capybaralet
* To some extent, you don't need to.  I don't believe there's a very clear distinction between the 2 camps. * To begin with, this university would be viewed as weird, and I suspect, would not be particularly attractive to virtue signalers as a result.  This would help establish a culture of genuine idealists. * This is part of the mandate of the admissions decision-makers.  I expect if you had good people, you could do a pretty good job of screening applicants.  

The call has now concluded. 8 participants, 2 hours, one great topic. Thank you again, mwcvitkovic

I like it! Good job finding a small one-time change that would add up to a big difference over time.

Visa, PayPal, and some others already have discounted credit card processing rates for charities. How do you plan to respond to a boilerplate reply saying they’re already providing a discount for charities? I’m concerned that the existing nominal discount will “check the box” for some people that the credit card processing companies “care”.

Do you have a plan for negotiating if you get an interested response? In my limited experience with vendor pricing nego... (read more)

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JSWinchell
Thanks so much for your question Cienna! The honest answer is that we are not approaching this project anticipating that it will end in a negotiation with VISA. My assumption (could very well be flawed as this is our first social media campaign) was that VISA would either change the fee or not, without negotiating externally. You may very well be right though so thank you for offering these tips, it's greatly appreciated! The aim in targeting one processor was to maximize the pressure on a single company vs spreading ourselves thin across multiple.  Thanks again!

Thanks for the fascinating post! This inspired me to arrange a discussion with some philosophical Meetup friends who have had similar thoughts in this direction. Anyone interested is welcome to join the conversation! It will be Sunday, November 29th at 7 PM ET.

Call link: https://meet.google.com/pck-hiva-oen

Meetup description: https://meetu.ps/e/JzK78/wGLs9/a

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Cienna
The call has now concluded. 8 participants, 2 hours, one great topic. Thank you again, mwcvitkovic! 
Answer by Cienna1
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Little Things by Julia A. F. Carney

Little drops of water, 
Little grains of sand, 
Make the mighty ocean 
And the pleasant land.

Thus the little minutes, 
Humble though they be, 
Make the mighty ages 
Of eternity.

Thank you so much for writing this! What sources would you recommend for keeping up with further developments in this area? 

Update: I now think it's a problem with the first impression. A title with shorter words that stirred the imagination might perform better. I remember feeling the draw of effort to understand what the title meant. 

Compared with 
"Growing edible algae on the Moon"
- title was partly misleading
- raise was overfunded with plenty of time to spare  
- Might have been "Assessing fresh spirulina as a space food at HI-SEAS"

"What is the ethanol resistance of lignin biocoating?"
- accurate title
- raise failed at 1/3  
- Might have been "Can lignin kee... (read more)

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