User Comment Replies

Thank you for the information - I'll keep tabs via your groups FB page for future events! Sorry for such a delayed response - I haven't been able to check in on these forums as much as I'd like lately.

Come hang out with EA Princeton!

dgjpalmer5y3

Hello Abby,

I'm hoping you may clarify which events, if any, would be open to people who are not Princeton students/fellows/faculty.

I have no affiliation with the university, although I live nearby. Thanks

Abby Hoskin

Hello hello! Our big lectures (e.g., Will MacAskill on September 30th) are open to ALL, regardless of university affiliation. Hope you can come :) Our weekly dinner discussion groups are also open to all. They are pretty short (60 minutes) so they're only worth coming to if you're not commuting from far away. Since we order food in advance for these, it would be super helpful to RSVP on facebook if you're planning to come. A small selection of our events will be closed due to huge demand. For example, people will need to apply for dinner with Peter Singer. This will be made clear in our publicity for each event. Yours, Abby

A Framework for Thinking about the EA Labor Market

dgjpalmer5y16

I can tell you that my superiors tried to make the 'meaningful' nature of my work more salient when conditions and compensation were unsatisfactory - it leaves an awful aftertaste. Simple economic models would've supported their perspective: surely satisfaction from mission alignment can substitute for more material incentives. However, my experience and decision making in response to my employer, dangling meaning in front of me, would be better explained in the vernacular of lefty sociologist types: alienation, resentment, and distrust.

The... (read more)

A Framework for Thinking about the EA Labor Market

dgjpalmer5y22

Toonalfrink, I'm hesitant to provide a concrete definition of privilege because it's definitely an amorphous thing. That being said, since I know it does mean very different things in different countries, so I should have provided some context in my examples:

Employer Location: US major metropolitan city

Entry level salary/benefits: $35k; competitive health insurance; no 401k/403b (retirement fund) match; no maternity leave

Looking briefly as US dept of Education data, the median American student loan debt burden for those with a bachelor's deg... (read more)

toonalfrink

It does provide clarity, and I can imagine that there are unfortunate cases where those entry level salaries aren't enough. As I said elsewhere in this thread, I think this problem would be best resolved simply by asking how much an applicant needs, instead of raising wages accross the board. The latter would cause all kinds of problems. It would worsen the already latent center/periphery divide in EA by increasing inequality, it would make it harder for new organisations to compete, it would reduce the net amount of people that we can employ, etc etc. But I could be wrong, and I sense that some of my thoughts might be ideologically tainted. If you feel the urge to point me at some econ 101, please do.

Jon_Behar

Great post, strong upvote.

A Framework for Thinking about the EA Labor Market

dgjpalmer5y14

Two things I should have mentioned in my first post the would have provided some clarity. While many employees certainly were privileged, the HQ was in a lower cost of living city - it was easier to live on a more modest salary. But I completely agree: although there was usually an excess of applicants, the low salary must have filtered out a lot of people.

I'm curious what the cultures are like at different organizations recognized as Effective? I'm sure some individuals participating in this forum could speak to that. I've read the observat... (read more)

Jon_Behar

Terrific anecdata, thanks for sharing! Great illustrations of how intentional compensation/HR policies can help organizations access broader pools of talent. The EA survey showed the community as a whole tilts heavily male as you say, but I have no idea what the gender split would look like if you looked only at people who work at EA orgs (or at senior people in EA orgs). Would be fascinating to do a survey of EA employees to get a sense of demographics, skills, opportunity costs, how they found the job, etc. In a Facebook discussion about this post someone proposed looking for “a Head of Compensation and People Analytics for the EA community”, and this is the sort of data they could collect and use to inform specific policy suggestions.

A Framework for Thinking about the EA Labor Market

dgjpalmer5y31

As someone who's worked as a manager in a non-profit (although mission-driven, it wouldn't be considered EA) long enough to see attrition and remain in touch with many employees that remained or left, I hope my observations may add value.

-Many employees weren't motivated by salary. This can be for any number of reasons: eg. their spouse has an exceptional income, their interests outside of work require little money, etc.

-Status counted for a lot and takes many different forms:

-The ability to maintain relationships with wealthy donors, e... (read more)

Jon_Behar

dgjpalmer, thanks so much for sharing your thoughts and experiences! -I largely agree with your description of the different forms of non-monetary compensation non-profit employees receive, like different forms of status. This data point on the relative satisfaction across roles is very helpful and relevant. Your experience is totally consistent with economic theory, which would predict highest dissatisfaction in roles where there’s a high opportunity cost (people could earn lots more in the private sector) and where the work doesn’t generate much of a “warm glow” (like accounting vs. direct service). This is why I think it’s important to get a handle on what sorts of roles this applies to in the EA ecosystem and how big those opportunity costs are for the best candidates. -I didn’t mean to suggest that nonprofits can’t attract talented people (though it sounds like your organization might have been exceptional in this area). Like you, I’ve been fortunate to work with some amazing people who have worked at steep discounts to what they could otherwise earn because they believed in a charitable mission, some of whom have volunteered their time fully. My argument is that nonprofits (especially EA nonprofits) are only able to attract a narrow type of talented person, and that this narrowness inhibits their effectiveness. For instance, as Khorton observes low salaries weed out people who aren’t mission aligned but they also weed out people without a lot of privilege. I’ll discuss this more in a response to her comment.

Kirsten5y30

I think it perfectly makes that the people you worked with weren't that motivated by money. Presumably, the people who needed to care for their aging parents or pay off massive student loans or had other significant financial constraints couldn't have afforded to even start working at the non-profit in question.

dgjpalmer5y36

This is an interesting coincidence. I'm someone who read and was influenced by EA blogs around 2014-2015, after working for an NGO for a few years. I was influenced enough to factor it in my decision to leave my job and go back to school to become a Nurse Practitioner. (As evidenced by the fact that nursing and advanced practice nursing aren't highly recommended pathways in 80k hrs, it's fair to say I factored what I read among EA sites alongside my own appraisals of priority areas, beliefs/attitudes, and individual circumstances).

Despite be... (read more)

Aaron Gertler

Thank you for this detailed description of your experience! I would guess that many other people in the EA community have a similar story to tell about the challenge of self-presentation/conspicuous consumption, as well as the ease with which you can drift when you find a new partner/friend group. I'm trying to understand value drift better, and this comment added value for me.

Effective Altruism Forum
EA Forum

All of dgjpalmer's Comments + Replies