jacobpfau

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Timeline Utilitarianism

The question of how to aggregate over time may even have important consequences for population ethics paradoxes. You might be interested in reading Vanessa Kosoy's theory here in which she sums an individual's utility over time with an increasing penalty over life-span. Although I'm not clear on the justification for these choices, the consequences may be appealing to many: Vanessa, herself, emphasizes the consequences on evaluating astronomical waste and factory farming.

Some learnings I had from forecasting in 2020

Agreed, I've been trying to help out a bit with Matt Barnett's new question here. Feedback period is still open, so chime in if you have ideas!

I suspect most Metaculites are accustomed to paying attention to how a question's operationalization deviates from its intent FWIW. Personally, I find the Montezuma's revenge criterion quite important without which the question would be far from AGI.

My intent with bringing up this question, was more to ask about how Linch thinks about the reliability of long-term predictions with no obvious frequentist-friendly track record to look at.

Some learnings I had from forecasting in 2020

Sure at an individual level deference usually makes for better predictions, but at a community level deference-as-the-norm can dilute the weight of those who are informed and predict differently from the median. Excessive numbers of deferential predictions also obfuscate how reliable the median prediction is, and thus makes it harder for others to do an informed update on the median.

As you say, it's better if people contribute information where their relative value-add is greatest, so I'd say it's reasonable for people to have a 2:1 ratio of questions on which they deviate from the median to questions on which they follow the median. My vague impression is that the ratio may be lower -- especially for people predicting on <1 year time horizon events. I think you, linch and other heavier Metaculus users may have a more informed impression here though, so would be happy to see disagreement.

I think it would be interesting to have a Metaculus on which for every prediction you have to select a general category for your update e.g. "New Probability Calculation", "Updated to Median", "Information source released", etc. Seeing the various distributions for each would likely be quite informative.

Some learnings I had from forecasting in 2020

Do your opinion updates extend from individual forecasts to aggregated ones? In particular how reliable do you think is the Metaculus median AGI timeline?

On the one hand, my opinion of Metaculus predictions worsened as I saw how the 'recent predictions' showed people piling in on the median on some questions I watch. On the other hand, my opinion of Metaculus predictions improved as I found out that performance doesn't seem to fall as a function of 'resolve minus closing' time (see https://twitter.com/tenthkrige/status/1296401128469471235). Are there some observations which have swayed your opinion in similar ways?

AMA: Tobias Baumann, Center for Reducing Suffering

What kinds of evidence and experience could induce you to update for/against the importance of severe suffering?

Do you believe that exposure to or experience of severe suffering would cause the average EA to focus more heavily on it?

Edit: Moving the question "Thinking counterfactually, what evidence and experiences caused you to have the views you do on severe suffering?" down here because it looks like other commenters already asked another version of it.

What FHI’s Research Scholars Programme is like: views from scholars

Out of the rejection pool, are there any avoidable failure modes that come to mind -- i.e. mistakes made by otherwise qualified applicants which caused rejection? For example, in a previous EA-org application I found out that I ought to have included more detail regarding potential roadblocks to my proposed research project. This seemed like a valuable point in retrospect, but somewhat unexpected given my experience with research proposals outside of EA.

EDIT: (Thanks to Rose for for answering this question individually and agreeing to let me share her answer here) Failure modes include: Describing the value of proposed research ideas too narrowly instead of discussing long-term value. Apparent over-confidence in the description of ideas, i.e. neglecting potential road-bumps and uncertainty.

My Meta-Ethics and Possible Implications for EA

Thanks for the lively discussion! We've covered a lot of ground, so I plan to try to condense what was said into a follow-up blog post making similar points as the OP but taking into account all of your clarifications.

I’m not sure how broadly you’re construing ‘meta-reactions’, i.e. would this include basically any moral view which a person might reach based on the ordinary operation of their intuitions and reason and would all of these be placed on an equal footing?

'Meta-reactions' are the subset of our universalizable preferences which express preferences over other preferences (and/or their relation). What it means to be 'placed on equal footing' is that all of these preferences are comparable. Which of them will take precedence in a certain judgement depends on the relative intensity of feeling for each preference. This stands in contrast to views such as total utilitarianism in which certain preferences are considered irrational and are thus overruled independently of the force with which we feel them.

more or less any moral argument could result from a process of people reflecting on their views and the views of others and seeking consistency

The key point here is 'seeking consistency': my view is that the extent to which consistency constraints are morally relevant is contingent on the individual. Any sort of consistency only carries force insofar as it is one of the given individual's universalizable preferences. In a way, this view does ‘leave everything as it is’ for non-philosophers' moral debates. I also have no problem with a population ethicist who sees eir task as finding functions which satisfy certain population ethics intuitions. My view only conflicts with population ethics and animal welfare ethics insofar as ey take eir conclusions as a basis for language policing. E.g. When an ethicist claims eir preferred population axiology has implications on understanding everyday uses of moral language.

I have in mind cases of moral thinking, such as the example I gave where we override disgust responses based on reflecting that they aren’t actually morally valuable.

Within my framework we may override disgust responses by e.g. observing that they are less strong than our other responses, or by observing that -- unlike our other responses -- they have multiple meta-reactions stacked against them (fairness, 'call to universality', etc.) and we feel those meta-reactions more strongly. I do not endorse coming up with a theory about moral value and then overriding our disgust responses because of the theoretical elegance or epistemological appeal of that theory. I'm not sure whether you have in mind the former or the latter case?

My Meta-Ethics and Possible Implications for EA

[From a previous DM comment]

For moral talk to be capable of serving this practical purpose we just need some degree of people being inclined to respond to the same kinds of things or to be persuaded to share the same attitudes. But this doesn’t require any particularly strong, near-universal consensus or consensus on a particular single thing being morally good/bad. [...] This seems compatible with very, very widespread disagreement in fact: it might be that people are disposed to think that some varying combinations of “fraternity, blood revenge, family pride, filial piety, gavelkind, primogeniture, friendship, patriotism, tribute, diplomacy, common ownership, honour, confession, turn taking, restitution, modesty, mercy, munificence, arbitration, mendicancy, and queuing”

Sorry, I should've addressed this directly. The SMB-community picture is somewhat misleading. In reality, you likely have partial overlap in SMB and the intersection of your whole community of friends is less (but does include pain aversion). Moral disagreement attains a particular level of meaningfulness when both speakers share SMB relevant to their topic of debate. I now realize that my use of 'ostensive' was mistaken. I meant to say, as perhaps has already become clear, that SMB lends substance to moral disagreement. SMB plays a role in defining moral disagreement, but, as you say, SMB likely plays a lesser role when it comes to using moral language outside of disagreement.

It doesn’t seem to me like we have any particular reason to privilege these basic intuitive responses as foundational, in cases where they conflict with our more abstruse reasoning.

If we agree that SMB plays a crucial role in lending meaning to moral disagreement, then we can understand the nature of moral disagreement without appeal to any 'abstruse reasoning'. I argue that what we do when disagreeing is emphasizing various parts of SMB to the other. In this picture of moral language = universalizable preferences + elicit disapproval + SMB subset, where does abstruse reasoning enter the picture? It only enters when a philosopher sees a family resemblance between moral disagreement and other sorts of epistemological disagreement and thus feels the urge to bring in talk of abstruse reasoning. As described in the OP, for non-philosophers abstruse reasoning only matters as mediated by meta-reactions. In effect, reasoning constraints enter the picture as a subset of our universalizable preferences, but as such there's no basis for them to override our other object-level universalizable preferences. Of course, I use talk of preferences here loosely; I do believe that these preferences have vague intensities which may sometimes be compared. E.g. someone may feel their meta-reactions particularly strongly and so these preferences may carry more weight than other preferences because of this intensity of feeling.

This leads us back into the practical conclusions in your OP. Suppose that a moral aversion to impure, disgusting things is innate (and arguably one of the most basic moral dispositions). It still seems possible that people routinely overcome and override this basic disposition and just decide that impurity doesn’t matter morally and disgusting things aren’t morally bad.

I'm not sure if I know what you're talking about by 'impure things'. Sewage perhaps? I'm not sure what it means to have a moral aversion to sewage. Maybe you mean something like the aversion to the untouchable caste? I do not know enough about that to comment.

Independently of the meaning of 'impure', let me respond to "people routinely overcome and override this basic disposition": certainly people's moral beliefs often come into conflict e.g. trolley problems. I would describe most of these cases as having multiple conflicting universalizable preferences in play. Sometimes one of those preferences is a meta-reaction, e.g. 'call to universality', and if the meta-reaction is more salient or intense then perhaps it carries more weight than a 'basic disposition'. Let me stress again that I do not make a distinction between universalizable preferences which are 'basic dispositions' and those which I refer to as meta-reactions. These should be treated on an equal footing.

My Meta-Ethics and Possible Implications for EA

Thanks for the long reply. I feel like our conversation becomes more meaningful as it goes on.

Thanks for clarifying. This doesn't change my response though since I don't think there's a particularly notable convergence in emotional reactions to observing others in pain which would serve to make valenced emotional reactions a particularly central part of the meaning of moral terms. For example, it seems to me like children (and adults) often think that seeing others in pain is funny (c.f. punch and judy shows or lots of other comedy), fun to inflict and often well-deserved

Yes, it's hard to point to exactly what I'm talking about, and perhaps even somewhat speculative since the modern world doesn't have too much suffering. Let me highlight cases that could change my mind: Soldiers often have PTSD, and I suspect some of this is due to the horrifying nature of what they see. If soldiers' PTSD was found to be entirely caused by lost friends and had nothing to do with visual experience, I would reduce my credence on this point. When I watched Land of Hope and Glory I found seeing the suffering of animals disturbing, and this would obviously be worse if the documentary had people suffering in similar conditions to the animals. I am confident that most people have similar reactions, but if they don't I would change my view of the above. The most relevant childhood experiences are likely those which involve prolonged pain: a skinned knee, a fever, a burn etc. I think what I'm trying to point at could be described as 'pointless suffering'. Pain in the context of humor, cheap thrills, couch-viewing etc. is not what I'm referring to.

there's a good case that people (and primates for that matter) have innate moral reactions to (un)fairness

This seems plausible to me, and I don't claim that pleasure/pain serve as the only ostensive root grounding moral language. Perhaps (un)fairness is even more prominent, but nevertheless I claim that this group of ostensive bases (pain, unfairness, etc.) is necessary to understand some of moral language's distinctive features cf. my original post:

When confronted with such suffering we react sympathetically, experiencing sadness within ourselves. This sadness may be both attributable to a conscious process of building empathy by imagining the others’ experience, or perhaps an involuntary immediate reaction resulting from our neural wiring.

Perhaps some of these "involuntary immediate reaction"s are best described as reactions to unfairness. For brevity let me refer below to this whole family of ostensive bases by Shared Moral Base, SMB.

Notably, it seems like a very common feature (until very recently in advanced industrial societies anyway) of cases of children's initial training in morality involved parents or others directly inflicting pain on children when they did something wrong and often

Let me take this opportunity to emphasize that I agree: The subsequent tendency to disapprove following use of moral language is an important feature of moral language.

that I think others should disapprove of you and I would disapprove of them if they don't

This is the key point. Why do we express disapproval of others when they don't disapprove of the person who did the immoral act? I claim it's because we expect them to share certain common, basic reactions e.g. to pain, unfairness, etc and when these basic reactions are not salient enough in their actions and their mind, we express disapproval to remind them of SMB. Here's a prototypical example: an aunt chastises a mother for failing to stop her husband from striking their child in anger. The aunt does so because she knows the mother cares about her children, and more generally doesn't want people to be hurt unreasonably. If the mother were one of our madmen from above, then the aunt would find it futile to chastise her. To return to my example of "a world filled with people whose innate biases varied randomly", in that world we would not find it fruitful to disapprove of others when they didn't disapprove of you. Do you not agree that disapproval would have less significance in that world?

It doesn't seem to me that learning what it means for them to say that such and such is morally wrong vs what it means for them to say that they dislike something requires that we learn what specific things people (specifically or in general) think morally wrong / dislike.

True, the learner merely has to learn that they have within themselves some particular disposition towards the morally wrong cases. These dispositions may be various: aversion to pain, aversion to unfairness, guilt, etc. The learner later finds it useful to continue to use moral language, because others outside of her home share these dispositions to morally wrong cases. To hyperbolize this point: moral language would have a different role if SMB were similar to eye color i.e. usually shared within the family, but diverse outside of the family.

What seems to matter to me, as a test of the meaning of moral terms, is whether we can understand someone who says "Hurting people is good" as uttering a coherent moral sentence and, as I mentioned before, in this purely linguistic sense I think we can.

I agree that it would be natural to call "Hurting people is good" a use of moral language on the part of the madman. I only claim that we can have a different, more substantial, kind of disagreement within our community of people who share SMB than we can with the madman. E.g. the kind of disagreement I describe in the family with the aunt above.

I also agree that moral language is often used to persuade people who share some of our moral views or to persuade people to share our moral views, but don't think this requires that the meaning of the moral terms depends on or involves consensus about the rightness or wrongness of specific moral things. For moral talk to be capable of serving this practical purpose we just need some degree of people being inclined to respond to the same kinds of things or to be persuaded to share the same attitudes. But this doesn’t require any particularly strong, near-universal consensus or consensus on a particular single thing being morally good/bad.

Yes, I agree. However, cases in which our conversations are founded on SMB have a distinctive character which is of great importance. I agree that the view described in my original post likely becomes less relevant when applied to disagreements across moral cultures i.e. between groups with very different SMB. I'm not particularly bothered by this caveat since most discussion of object-level ethics seems to occur within communities of shared SMB e.g. medical ethics, population ethics, etc.

My Meta-Ethics and Possible Implications for EA

I don't think there's a particularly noteworthy consensus about it being bad for other people to be in pain

Sorry, I should've been more clear about what I'm referring to. When you say "People routinely seem to think" and "People sometimes try to argue", I suspect we're talking past each other. I am not concerned with such learned behaviors, but rather with our innate neurologically shared emotional response to seeing someone suffering. If you see someone dismembered it must be viscerally unpleasant. If you see someone strike your mother as a toddler it must be shocking and will make you cry. (To reiterate, I focus on these innate tendencies, because they are what let us establish common reference. Downstream uses of moral and other language are then determined by our shared and personal inductive biases.)

you would be wrong not to give me $10 and would be apt for disapproval if you did not

Exciting, perhaps we've gotten to the crux of our disagreement here! How do we learn what cases are have "aptness for disapproval"? This is only possible if we share some initial consensus over what aptness for disapproval involves. I suggest that this initial consensus is the abovementioned shared aversion to physical suffering. Of course, when you learn language from your parents they need not and cannot point at your aversions, but you implicitly use these aversions as the best fitting explanation to generalize your parents language. In effect, your task as a toddler is to figure out why your parents sometimes say "that was wrong, don't do that" instead of "I didn't like what you did, don't do that". I suggest the "that was wrong" cases more often involve a shared reaction on your part -- prototypically when your parents are referring to something that caused pain. Compare to a child whose parents' whose notion of bad includes burning your fingers but only on weekends, she will have more difficulty learning their uses of moral language, because this use does not match our genetic/neurological biases.

Another way of seeing why the core cases of agreement (aka the ostensive basis) for moral language is so important, is to look at what happens when someone disagrees with this basis: Consider a madman who believes hurting people is good and letting them go about their life is wrong. I suspect that most people believe we cannot meaningfully argue with him. He may utter moral words but always with entirely different meaning (extension). In slogan form, "There's no arguing with a madman". Or take another sort of madman: someone who agrees with you that usually hurting people is wrong, but then remorselessly goes berserk when he sees anyone with a nose of a certain shape. He simply has a different inductive bias (mental condition). If you deny the significance of the consensus I described in the first paragraph, how do you distinguish between these two madmen and more sensible cases of moral disagreement?

In a world filled with people whose innate biases varied randomly, and who had arbitrary aversions, one could still meaningfully single out a subset of an individual's preferences which had a universalisable character -- i.e. those preferences which she would prefer everyone to hold. However, peoples' universalisable preferences would hold no special significance to others, and would function in conversation just as all other preferences do. In contrast, in our world, many of our universalisable preferences are shared and so it makes sense to remind others of them. The fact that these universalisable preferences are shared makes them "apt for dissaproval" across the whole community, and this is why we use moral language.

One can sensibly say "I like/don't like this pleasant/painful sensation" without thereby saying "It is morally right that you act to promote/alleviate my experience"

Yes, naturally. The reason why the painful sensations matter is that they help us arrive at a shared understanding of the "aptness for disapproval" you describe.

[From DM's other comment]

Conversely it seems to me that moral discourse is characterised by widespread disagreement i.e. we can sensibly disagree about whether it's right or wrong to torture

Yes, I agree work has to be done to explain why utilitarianism parallels arithmetic despite apparent differences. I will likely disagree with you in many places, so hopefully I'll find time to re-read Kripke. I would enjoy talking about it then.

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