All of Josh Jacobson's Comments + Replies

They also wouldn't cover e.g. capabilities companies being reckless or violating commitments they made, unless they break some clear law, and even then protections are pretty limited.

An alternative take on this (I haven’t researched this topic myself): https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/LttenWwmRn8LHoDgL/josh-jacobson-s-quick-takes?commentId=ZA2N2LNqQteD5dE4g

There's a similar post on this forum from a few years back, I believe, with some probably valuable discussion.

6
Silas Strawn
4mo
Yeah, looks like there's an older post about Be The Match, with some more conventional EA cost-benefit analysis: https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/dnXPjagqyKKtYSrWv/be-the-match-a-volunteer-list-for-bone-marrow-donation  I did some back-of-the-envelope type calculation as well and found it to be quite cost-effective per QALY, imho. (I can post my reasoning if there's interest, but I'm new to that sort of analysis so I left it out of the post.) @Joey has a favorable cost-effectiveness breakdown in his comment as well. It looks like there were some disagreements in the comments of the old post on the cost-effectiveness 

Quick Take: Probably the best board members will have some significant hesitance to accept. This is one spot where I think EA is sometimes getting things wrong right now, and where I think e.g. a full hiring round for a board is quite misdirected.


Wrote the following in a Slack thread asking about advice for selecting board members:

(I’m familiar with the US and not other places, so some of this may not exactly be right outside the US.)

  1. First of all, your Board has ~complete control over your organization. They can remove the executive, change strategy,

... (read more)
3
det
6mo
When you say a full hiring round is misdirected, what is this compared to? (Maybe pitching the position to individuals the org knows and trusts, and giving them more time to consider it and overcome their hesitations?) I don't have any real experience in hiring so I'm not sure whether I see the drawback being implicitly pointed at here.

Yeah, that can be significant work.

Some lawyers claim that there may be significant (though not at all ideal) whistleblowing protection for individuals at AI companies that don't fully comply with the Voluntary Commitments: https://katzbanks.com/wp-content/uploads/KBK-Law360-Despite-Regulation-Lag-AI-Whistleblowers-Have-Protections.pdf

I’m pretty surprised it seemed like a large pain. In my experience it’s been easy to secure.

I might be confused here, but it sure seemed easy to hand over money, but hard to verify that the insurance would actually kick in in the relevant situation, and wouldn't end up being voided for some random reason.

Thanks for sharing!

This isn't on you, but just sharing that the website feels really lacking in detail and salesy. It isn't clear to me at all:

  1. What the normal price is
  2. Why this would be any better than all the other offerings
  3. Why I should particularly go through the significant additional red tape vs. other options
  4. If this will be repeatable; after all, being able to compare results over time is likely a huge amount of the value of these things

If you happen to know any of these answers, I'd be interested. Otherwise, this comment is just to help others know some potential issues before they decide whether to investigate further.

1
xavier rg
1y
Thanks for the comment! Hope these help: 2: I don't have knowledge about the comparative quality of OHI vs. other options (e.g., Gallup and CultureAmp) 3: The process didn't seem to me to have significant additional red tape. ~10h seems about right to run such a survey end to end. The application form asks for basic details such as contact info, organization name/mission, organization size/location, etc. 4: I don't know. Last year's iteration of OHI-for-nonprofits seems to have been a pilot.

I didn’t read this, but my very first foray into “doing good” was building a web app to fight loneliness via helping people make friends online (2010-2013).

We didn’t get to see what it could become as I became passionate about doing other EA things (joined CEA then) but I’ve sometimes wondered if continuing with that app would have been the right call. I think there’s some chance we had found the right design / product for this space.

Anyway if anyone feels like picking up the codebase or otherwise trying to move forward with a massive loneliness intervention, I’d be open to messaging about it.

FWIW, I would value (for the community) a "how-to" post that describes e.g. branding process more than this type of post which points at various considerations. E.g. something(s) that taught what it means to create a hierarchy of the messages you want to get across, what positioning statements are, etc. and how to create a brand on the basis of those considerations.

Yeah I totally agree that the article was much better than many others on the subject, and that it isn't an easy task. I just thought it was worth acknowledging the shortcomings as well.

8
Devin Kalish
2y
I also think it was probably the most flawed of the three, but it also seemed like the most ambitious and packed with some of the most interesting information and narrative (plus by the person with the least prior familiarity) so I think I was unusually forgiving towards the flaws it did have.
3
Devin Kalish
2y
Fair.

There were plenty of shortcomings, I thought, in the New Yorker piece (the only one of the three I've read).

4
Devon Fritz
2y
Curious to hear what you thought these were if you feel it worth your time to share.
2
Devin Kalish
2y
I agree, but EA is a big messy fast-changing movement with lots of internal diversity, controversies, projects, ideas etc., that is pretty poorly known by the average person. This writer had to tease out a good, nuanced take on the movement, as far as I can tell, basically from scratch, which isn't easy, and I think it shows that he put a ton of care, thought, and research into the task. The product wasn't perfect, but I think it's much better than the average explainer non-EAs, or frankly some EAs, would write on the topic.

Wow.

If this is a legit cover (e.g. is the one on the print edition, and here, and here), this puts EA in a new era of media coverage.

3
blonergan
2y
https://timecoverstore.com/featured/how-to-do-more-good-illustration-by-peter-greenwood-for-time.html Added bonus that it appears to be a double issue
4
Linch
2y
It appears to be most prominent on the "Front Page" of the website.
2
michel
2y
Thanks for the tip. I will start sourcing more regularly from here.
5
Jeff Kaufman
2y
It should be https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/mfBxna3iFPGnWsmWB/fonix-bioweapons-shelter-project-launch

The name seems potentially quite bad. To me, the connotation is that everything in it should be taken with an asterisk. E.g. its meaning as described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asterisk#Competitive_sports_and_games

4
david_reinstein
2y
I think they do want to allow speculative, less 'we know for sure' claims that are "epistemically signposted" and reasoning transparent. So to some extent that connotation for the asterisk is not so far off. But I agree that I have heard of "that home run record comes with an asterisk". But somewhat doubtful this will come to mind in this context.
7
BrianTan
2y
Interesting, I wasn't familiar with this connotation (even if I watch quite a few sports).  To me the name Asterisk is decent, but yeah it might not be a good one if it would be confused with other search results or journals/magazines, like asteriskjournal.org as noted by Azure here

FanDuel ended up crediting my account after doing the same thing, and then reaching out to them on Twitter.

PlayMaverick's only withdrawal option seems to be:

WITHDRAW AT CAGE Get an authorization code and enable you cash withdrawal at the Maverick sports book counter.

So I passed on that one.

1
Sam Anschell
2y
Strange, I was able to withdraw to a debit card or through PlayPlus (which I can then transfer to a bank account). Your withdrawal options may vary depending on what method you use to deposit. 
2
Sam Anschell
2y
When I bet with SI it was similar to DraftKings, but now they’ve changed the promo to be a bit worse for those taking the standard deduction. You have to place 30 $10 bets to unlock 30 $10 free bets that do not return they’re stake Strategy should be short odds for the cash bets, long odds for the free bets. Still worth doing, just a bit cumbersome. Thanks for spotting that!
2
Sam Anschell
2y
Napkin math says no if you’re taking standard deduction but yes if you’re itemizing. Promo EV is about $1600, and you have to place $6,000 worth of bets to unlock it, so if your bets outperform a ~27% loss rate, this is profitable. Be sure that the cash bets you place are no shorter than -200 odds because -200 is the minimum odds to qualify towards to rollover requirement. Also, the bet you place with the site credit should be on long odds because the free bet does not return its stake.

Personally I I’d dispute the charge with my bank in that instance

3
Edward S
2y
Won the Paypal dispute :)

Caesar's lets you do your free bet first, which messed me up and I ended up doing it on extremely short odds (based on the order above). Just sharing so no one else misses out by doing this!

1
Sam Anschell
2y
Thank you for a great tip, this was not the case when I bet with Caesar’s just three weeks ago. It appears that the terms of these offers can change very frequently, I’ll edit this post when I get home to recommend that a participant carefully read the current terms and conditions before depositing/betting.

In ~3 instances I had trouble with the websites, and switching to the mobile apps resolved all 3 of those issues.

If you attempt to place a bet and you get a message that only a fraction of your wager is approved, cancel your bet and look for a new one.

I submitted the whole amount for approval on ~4 books, and each time it was fully approved, so that seems like a good way to go.

2
Sam Anschell
2y
Interesting and great to hear! The bets I submitted on Twinspires and Bally Bet weren't approved for the whole amount, though customer support did let me make new risk-free bets with the remainder of my deposit. This may be because I looked suspicious betting from the same AirBNB as my friends, or I may have picked more obscure bets than you, or the sites may just be inconsistent.

I don't think I understand what it means to "return the stake" nor how to determine if that is happening.

Certain sites give you bonus funds in free bets that don't return the stake (like MaximBet and PlayMaverick). Like with site credit earned through risk-free first bet promotions, that credit should be used on events with long odds. Other sites give you credit that does return the stake (like BetRivers, and TVG). Credits of this type should be used on events with shorter odds to reduce variance and lower tax liability.

2
Sam Anschell
2y
If a free bet returns the stake, it will pay you the principle of the bet plus your profit when you win. If a free bet does not return the stake, it will only pay you your profit.  Example: A $1,000 free bet that returns the stake won at +100 or 1-1 odds pays back $2,000 (the $1,000 you bet, plus the $1,000 you won). A $1,000 free bet that does not return the stake won at +100 or 1-1 odds pays back only $1,000 (just the $1,000 that you won). Certain sites will list whether a free bet returns the stake in their promo terms. For other sites, you can read reviews or talk to customer support. Since it sounds like you're close to CO, you can also check out my spreadsheet where I summarize the promo terms of each book I used on the trip.

One difficulty I've had that's not covered here is on some sites, they greatly restrict the amount you can bet on most, if not all available bets. On one site I wasn't able to bet near the promo max, and on another something like 4/300 available bets allowed me to bet the promo max.

2
Sam Anschell
2y
Sites are more likely to restrict the amount you can bet if you're betting on an outcome the site has little confidence in (e.g., how likely is a certain rookie to collect over 2.5 rebounds). Sites do this to protect themselves from smart bettors who may know more than the site's model. My advice is to try to bet on "main lines", popular offerings that sites have high confidence in their odds of (e.g., how likely are the Rams to win this Sunday's SuperBowl).  If a site restricts you from betting the promo max on any event, try calling customer support to figure out why you're being limited as a first-time bettor. Hopefully, they can un-limit you or allow you to make multiple bonus-eligible smaller bets to get the most out of the promo. Good luck!

In instances where you have a free first bet, why is the second bet best to be on long rather than short odds?

1
Sam Anschell
2y
Great point: If you’re allowed a free bet first that can be used separately from a cash bet (as is the case with Caesars’ new offer,) there is no reason to bet on long odds with your cash bet.

It looks like Superbook and PlayMaverick should be short odds?

Superbook:

The following terms apply:

  • 100% Deposit Bonus Match
  • Up to $1,000 of initial deposit
  • Bonus Voucher will be credited into account within 24 hours
  • Bonus Vouchers are applied to 50% of your cash wager
  • Bonus voucher will be applied to subsequent qualifying wagers at 50% of the wager amount, up to the value remaining on the Bonus Voucher. (e.g. a $100 wager will be $50 cash and $50 of Bonus Voucher funds, if available).

PlayMaverick:

The Maverick Sports Welcome Deposit Bonus Match offe

... (read more)
1
Sam Anschell
2y
I believe both PlayMaverick and Super Book give credit that doesn’t return the stake, and credit that can only be used to subsidize cash wagers. This means the entire bet should be used on long odds, since the bettor has strong incentive to place site credit on long odds (higher EV) and only mild incentive to place cash wagers on short odds (lower variance).

If you'd like to continue advantage sports betting after grabbing the lowest hanging fruit of signup bonuses, you can continue to place +EV and arbitrage bets through OddsJam. The amount you can make depends on the size of your bankroll (i.e a $2,000 bet generates twice as much EV as a $1,000 bet.) You'll likely be limited by sports books within a couple of months (they'll restrict you to $5 per bet once they know you're a winning bettor,) but making smart bets is perfectly legal and you will always be able to withdraw your money, limited or otherwise.

Is this why these opportunities exist? Because I would have thought they'd be closed / taken advantage of quickly.

2
Sam Anschell
2y
These opportunities exist because each book sets its odds independently. Sports books respond to new information asynchronously and the books' different models can overweight the likelihood of certain outcomes and underweight the likelihood of others. From my experience, BetMGM and Fanduel often give favorable odds on favorites (short odds), and DraftKings, FoxBet, Barstool, and Twinspires give favorable odds on longshots.  Another reason these arbitrage and +EV betting opportunities exist is that US sports books are new, and the operators are prioritizing growth/debugging/marketing above the accuracy of their betting lines. Offshore sports books' odds are far more similar to one another than US sports books'.  I would predict that by 2025, the opportunity to make >5% +EV bets on US sports books will be a shadow of what it currently is. These opportunities aren't being taken advantage of for the same reason that blackjack players aren't all card counters: It's stressful to bet large amounts of money on high-variance events even when you know you're a mathematical favorite. And once a casino is sure you're a winning player, you're no longer welcome to play.  For anyone with the stomach and the bankroll for making hundreds of these slightly profitable bets per week, the opportunity is incredible until you get limited. With 60% confidence, I would estimate that someone with a liquid bankroll of $100,000 could profit between $40,000 and $200,000 within four months of advantage sports betting (8-12 hours/week). All they would need to do is bet on all >2% +EV betting opportunities that OddsJam suggests (with a tight market width/confidence interval), and use OddsJam's Kelly Criterion calculator to responsibly size their bets.  I would recommend that anyone considering this path be selective about suspicious-looking bets. Player props and alternate lines can be red flags for books to limit you quicker. If I lived in a state with legalized online sports betting I would

Strong disagree (I’d probably go so far to say that my prior on someone who plans to work 60 hours per week on this is lower that my prior on someone intending to work 40 hours), but doesn’t seem worth debating.

Tipico looks like it should be long odds, right?

Bet 100% Risk-Free, up to $750. Losing bet refunded as site credit. Deposit any amount you'd like.

1
Sam Anschell
2y
Good catch, the first bet should be long odds. Tipico's site credit returned the stake for me, so the second bet really should be made using short odds. I'll confirm that this is still the case with customer support tomorrow. The stake-return feature was why I categorized Tipico as a $400+ EV/hour book. 

This is cool, insightful, and creative. Thanks for making this post.

I do take issue with a prerequisite being 60+ hour weeks… there are many highly successful executives who work much less than that. Hours don’t necessarily correlate to production, and I expect unnecessarily including that in this post could filter out people who are very worth hearing from.

You're welcome.

Re hours: maybe? Personally I only imagine that being true for someone who's worked in this sort of retail before. If you haven't, and expect do a good job, then I reckon you'll be scrambling to get oriented and execute for at least several months if not the first year. Especially so if it's a business in decline and you're working to pull it out.

7
Sam Anschell
2y
Sure thing, it'll look similar to the NJ list.  $400-600/hour and lower variance: Barstool (first bet on long odds, free bet on short odds), Fanduel (first bet on long odds, free bet on short odds), Caesars (first bet on short odds, free bet on long odds), Tipico (both bets on short odds),  $150-300/hour and higher variance: BetMGM (both bets on long odds), Pointsbet (both bets on long odds, pointsbet following other comment in this post and very  high-variance for non-itemizers), Twinspires (both bets on long odds), Superbook (bet on long odds), BetFred (short odds on first bet, long odds on free bet). $50-150/hour and high variance Foxbet (both bets on long odds),  Bally Bet (both bets on long odds), Play Maverick (bet on long odds), Elite Sportsbook (garbage software that will test your patience, bet on long odds) $50-150/hour and low variance Draftkings (the bet $5 win 280 free option),  Wynnbet, BetRivers (you can bet both sides of the same game). Not worth doing:  Betway (offer recently pulled), BetWildwood, BetMonarch, Circa, SBK, TheScore,  Sky Ute,  Sportsbetting.com, Playup (due to promotion downgrade), Maximbet (due to rollover increase),    Unfortunately a few of the best CO offers got pulled or downgraded since this post was written eight days ago (Maximbet: Down from a $2,000 deposit match with a 1x rollover to a $2,000 deposit match with a 3x rollover. WynnBet: Down from a $1,000 risk-free first bet to a "bet $10, earn $200 site credit win or lose." Playup: Down from a $750 stake-returning deposit match $200 deposit match.)  This trend will probably continue as people like us take advantage of these offers, then never bet another dime. DraftKings used to offer a $5,000 risk-free first bet, Caesars used to offer a $5,000 risk-free first bet,  Sports Illustrated used to offer a $7,500 risk free first bet. Nevertheless, there is still a lot of opportunity in CO!

I found this compelling, but I feel confused about what I'd be signing up for from a time-investment perspective (hours, days, weeks?).

First, I want to support this suggestion:

If you do give it a try, consider leaving comments here on how much time you invested, how far you got, and how the whole thing was for you.

Responses of this kind will be quite helpful from my perspective, especially if the commentors share a bit about their background as well.

Given that comments of that type do not currently exist, I'd be excited for Holden and/or others in the ... (read more)

2
Chris Maloof
2y
I'm a software engineer with about 15 years of experience, but my jobs have had nothing to do with ML apart from occasional stats work. I remember a little about neural networks and Bayes nets from school 20 years ago, enough to follow part 1 of the ELK paper easily (up until Ontology Identification) and much (but not all) of the remainder difficult-ly. I occasionally read terrifying essays about AI and would like to help. I've spent maybe 8 hours with the ELK paper; it was encouraging how much I understood with my current background. I plan to take a day off next week to work on it, expecting to total around 20 hours. I have an idea of where I want to look first, but am dubious that I'll be able to pin down a new idea in that time as I'm not typically very creative. Still, I might get lucky, and updating/refreshing my ML knowledge a bit feels worthwhile in itself.
4
Rohin Shah
2y
After becoming very familiar with the ELK report (~5 hours?), it took me one hour to generate a proposal and associated counterexample (the "Predict hypothetical sensors" proposal here), though it wasn't very clean / fleshed out and Paul clarified it a bunch more (after that hour). I haven't checked whether it would have defeated all the counterexamples that existed at the time. I have a lot of background in CS, ML, AI alignment, etc but it did not feel to me that I was leveraging that all that much during the one hour of producing a proposal (though I definitely leveraged it a bunch to understand the ELK report in the first place, as well as to produce the counterexample to the proposal). 
6
Mark Xu
2y
Note: I work for ARC. I would consider someone a "pretty good fit" (whatever that means) for alignment research if they started out with a relatively technical background, e.g. an undegrad degree in math/cs, but not really having engaged with alignment before and they were able to come up with a decent proposal after: * ~10 hours of engaging with the ELK doc. * ~10 hours of thinking about the document and resolving confusions they had, which might involve asking some questions to clarify the rules and the setup. * ~10 hours of trying to come up with a proposal. If someone starts from having thought about alignment a bunch, I would consider them a potentially "pretty good researcher" if they were able to come up with a decent proposal in 2-8 hours. I expect many existing (alignment) researchers to be able to come up with proposals in <1 hour. Note that I'm saying "if (can come up with proposal in N hours), then (might be good alignment researcher)" and not saying the other implication also holds, e.g. it is not the case that "if (might be good alignment researcher), then (can come up with proposal in N hours)"
8
Holden Karnofsky
2y
Hey Josh, I think this is a good point - it would be great to have some common knowledge of what sort of commitment this is. Here's where I am so far: 1. I read through the full report reasonably carefully (but only some of the appendices). 2. I spent some time thinking about potential counterexamples. It's hard to say how much; this mostly wasn't time I carved out, more something I was thinking about while taking a walk or something. 3. At times I would reread specific parts of the writeup that seemed important for thinking about whether a particular idea was viable. I wrote up one batch of rough ideas for ARC and got feedback on it. I would guess that I spent several hours on #1, several hours on #2, and maybe another 2-3 hours on #3. So maybe something like 10-15 hours so far? At this point I don't think I'm clearly on track to come up with anything that qualifies for a prize, but I think I understand the problem pretty well and why it's hard for me to think of solutions. If I fail to submit a successful entry, I think it will feel more like "I saw what was hard about this and wasn't able to overcome it" than like "I tried a bunch of random stuff, lacking understanding of the challenge, and none of it worked out." This is the main benefit that I wanted. My background might unfortunately be hard to make much sense of, in terms of how it compares to someone else's. I have next to no formal technical education, but I have spent tons of time talking about AI timelines and AI safety, including with Paul (the head of ARC), and that has included asking questions and reading things about the aspects of machine learning I felt were important for these conversations. (I never wrote my own code or read through a textbook, though I did read Michael Nielsen's guide to neural networks a while ago.) My subjective feeling was that the ELK writeup didn't have a lot of prerequisites - mostly just a very basic understanding of what deep learning is about, and a vague unde

I can give a sense of my investment, though I'm obviously an unusual case in multiple ways. I'm a coauthor on the report but I'm not an ARC researcher, and my role as a coauthor was primarily to try to make it more likely that the report would be accessible to a broader audience, which involved making sure my own "dumb questions" were answered in the report.

I kept time logs, and the whole project of coauthoring the report took me ~100 hours. By the end I had one "seed" of an ELK idea but unfortunately didn't flesh it out because other work/life things were... (read more)

3
hrosspet
2y
During the 2 hours of reading and skimming through the relevant blog posts I was able to come up with 2 strategies (and no counter-examples so far). They seem to me as quite intuitive and easy to come up with, so I'm wondering what I got wrong about the ELK problem or the contest... Due to the low confidence in my understanding I don't feel comfortable submitting these strategies, as I don't want to waste the ARC's team time. My background: ML engineer (~7 years of experience), some previous exposure to AGI and AIS research and computer security.

Not an expert, but my understanding is that the entire Cold War, which started 10+ years earlier, was very much centered on nuclear risk between the two superpowers. I feel like not only did one person foresee risks very much like the Cuban Missile Crisis… the whole world did.

They may be willing to direct it to a charity that will give it to an individual, eg https://www.theissresearch.org/.

The Slack used for the fellowship is no longer being used

Someone in favor of the policy may respond to some of your concerns (e.g. the latter ones) with this sort of argument: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/6uwLq8kofo4Tzxfe2/long-covid-is-not-necessarily-your-biggest-problem

You use "we" a lot in this write-up; is there a coauthor or organization that was a part of this?

1
Stefan_Schubert
3y
May be author's we.

From my perspective, technically, Google Wave qualifies with the words you’ve written, but I don’t think it’s in the spirit of what you’ve written. (“Cheap” makes me think you’re looking for physical-world inventions, which is probably worth being more explicit about.)

If I’m wrong and it does qualify, there’s a number of web app examples.

There's a benefit, probably the main benefit IMO, that I don't feel like the above or any commenters address.

I claim that:

  1. Profile pictures will make "who wrote what" more identifiable and memorable
  2. There are many ways in which this could be good:

--- A: It will become easier to recall (and then potentially discuss) content that someone wrote when meeting them in-person / on zoom. I've had the experience multiple times at EA Globals where I interact with someone, then look them up, and realize there were topics they've written about that I would have lov... (read more)

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