All of N N's Comments + Replies

A question about this--do you work at the University of Canterbury now, or will you be supervising these students remotely?

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Denkenberger🔸
I will be starting an associate professor position in mechanical engineering at the University of Canterbury in January 2023.

See here: https://80000hours.org/podcast/episodes/david-wallace-many-worlds-theory-of-quantum-mechanics/

 

Basically, you can treat fraction of worlds as equivalent to probability, so there is little apparent need to change anything if MWI turns out to be true. 

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This is not about us. A  bunch of retail investors just completely lost their shirts due to, I don't know what exactly, but let's say "apparent bad behavior". If possible, we should try to provide some kind of support to them.

Yes, but a lot of EAs were those retail investors as well losing their shirts, or will likely lose their jobs now as they were funded via FTX.  Many in our community will be a subset of those affected, who indeed need lots of support, but a reasonable number nonetheless.

Is there any way that could possibly be true, given the events of the last few days?

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Davidmanheim
I assume not, no.
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Jesus. I hope it doesn't come to that in this case.

Or we should try to quickly move any money made in crypto into the S&P. I don't think this is about patient vs. urgent philanthropy per se. 

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Greg_Colbourn ⏸️
This gets more complicated when you factor in capital gains tax.
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Eevee🔹
Better yet, into a total world stock fund, since it's best to hold each country's stocks in proportion to its market cap.
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What happens if the money was donated to a charity that is subject to clawbacks, but the charity then spent the money? Do they try to claw it back from the suppliers or employees or whoever? Can it trigger a cascade of bankruptcies? 

Employers, suppliers, etc. should be safe. Although the underlying law is complex, at a high level a clawback is possible when (as Wikipedia describes "constructive fraud") the transfer "took place for less than reasonably equivalent value at a time when the debtor was in a distressed financial condition." If I sell my labor (or widgets) to Charity X and receive a fair market wage or price in return, then the transfer took place for reasonably equivalent value and all creditors can generally pound sand. 

It can get more complex, though. Let's say I am ... (read more)

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Pseudonym101
Redistribution - I think the tacit endorsement of extreme inequality of means by the movement could be net negative long run

My understanding is Dustin has already diversified out of Meta to some large degree (though I have no insider information).

Stipulate, for the sake of the argument, that Lukas et al. actually disagree with the doomers about various points. What would follow from that?

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I strongly agree with your comment, but I want to point out in defense of this trend that nuclear weapons policy seems to be unusually insulated from public input and unusually likely to be highly sensitive/not good to discuss in public.

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richard_ngo
I'm not just talking about preventing nuclear war, though, but also mitigations in the case where it happens. If there's something you can do to reduce risk for yourself, there's probably also something you can do to reduce risk for a thousand or ten thousand other people.
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I think I am missing something here. Does the book purport to mention every collapse? Why does WWOTF need to mention the Bronze Age Collapse?

This does sound like fun.

Maybe they should, maybe the shouldn't, but I don't think Gavin was saying such things should be encouraged. I think he was saying that there should be some kind of response if such leaks happen.

I appreciated the link to the hardscrapple frontier, which I had not heard of, FWIW.

Is the argument here that nobody should criticize effective altruism on websites that are not EA forum, because then outsiders might get a negative impression? And if so, what kind of impression would outsiders get if they knew about this proposed rule?

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Evan_Gaensbauer
Upvoted for asking important clarifying questions. To answer them, the argument is not that: 1. External critics should post on the EA Forum. There are a lot of problems with that Devin Kalish covered well in this comment. 2. Those already in the EA community should only post on the EA Forum. It'd be preferable that they also post on the EA Forum, such as summarizing conversations on social media, or posting links to their personal blog posts. The argument is: 1. Community members should consider posting more on the EA Forum, even if there are perceived risks to doing so. 2. The rationale for that can be risks just as great in community members posting exclusively off of the EA Forum in ways when inaccurate info about EA may spread in ways harder to keep track of and address. I don't mean for this to be a hard rule. What I'd want is for the EA Forum to serve a different function as a portal where outsiders could notice that their concerns with EA are being addressed and, when legitimate, validated in a systematic way. I expect that effort would garner more appreciation than what seems to be a mostly random and disorganized approach taken in EA. That's was at least my thinking until this comment from Devin raises a lot of points about how such an endeavour may be too hard or not valuable enough, especially compared to alternatives time and energy could be invested in.

An interesting thought, but I think this overlooks the fact that wealth is heavy tailed. So it is (probably) higher EV to have someone with a 10% shot at their tech startup getting huge than one person with a 100% chance of running a succesful plumbing company.

This is a great comment, you may want to consider making it a top level post on the forum so more people will see it.

A lot of people got into EA after reading a book, and a lot of people find new topics to investigate by reading newspaper articles.

The content of this comment seems reasonable to me. How is it "LARPing"? 

I meant broad sense existential risk, not just extinction. The first graph is supposed to represent a specific worldview where the relevant form of existential risk is extinction, and extinction is reasonably likely. In particular I had Eliezer Yudkowsky's views about AI in mind. (But I decided to draw a graph with the transition around 50% rather than his 99% or so, because I thought it would be clearer.) One could certainly draw many more graphs, or change the descriptions of the existing graphs, without representing everyone's thoughts on the function m... (read more)

FWIW, when I first saw that I wondered "what's the difference between the A-aesthetic and the B-aesthetic?" It might be clearer to say "non-aesthetic" or just something like "no frills".

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Devin Kalish
Agreed, in retrospect it is pretty obvious that there is no good way to attach the prefix "a" to a word that starts with an "a" and have anyone intuitively get what you mean.

Thanks for this post. I wonder if it would be good to somehow target different outside of  EA subcultures with messaging corresponding to their nearest-neighbor EA subculture. To some extent I guess this already happens, but maybe there is an advantage to explicitly thinking about it in these terms.

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Devin Kalish
I hope so, something like this is maybe one of my motives in making these distinctions explicit. I think this is part of what I meant when discussing the phenomenon of people feeling deceived when the movement looks much different from what they thought. In all likelihood the side of it they were originally interested in does exist and plays a genuine role in the movement, but it may have been put forward with something like the sense that "this is what Effective Altruism looks like" rather than "this is a side of Effective Altruism that might work for you".

Why, if you don't mind me asking?

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Peter
Ah I keep mixing it up. Thanks, edited the post. 
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Have his thoughts on the mathematical universe idea changed since he first put it forward?

A small thing, but citing a particular person seems less culty to  me than saying "some well-respected figures think X because Y". Having a community orthodoxy seems like worse optics than valuing the opinions of specific named people. 

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Ivy Mazzola
Tbh I've had success with this approach. Usually, someone will say "like who?" and then I get to rattle off some names with a clause-length bio without making their eyes glaze over, because they proactively requested the information. Other times they won't ask because they are more interested in the overall point than who thinks it anyway, and they probably already trsut me by that point. Sometimes I'd actually have to google anyway "well I know one was the head of this org and one was the author of this book, let me look those up" and then people are like "whatever whatever I believe you." It is the ideas that matter anyway In general, I think it is good to talk casually, and this kind of wording is very natural for me with the benefit that I don't screw up my train of thought trying to remember names then anyway. If it isn't natural for you (and I guess for many EAs it won't be, now that you mention it) don't do it
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Florence
I think she is suggesting that only reading up about one person's thoughts and treating it like gospel is cult-like and bad, then sharing that singular view gives off cult-like impressions (understandably). Rather, being more open to learning many different people's views, forming your own nuanced opinion, and then sharing that is far more valuable both intrinsically and extrinsically!  I think it's pretty clear you shouldn't be saying "some well-respected figures think X because Y" regardless, that's like 101 bad epistemics because it's not referencable and vague.  

What category would you put ideas like the unilateralist's curse or Bostrom's vulnerable world hypothesis? They seem like philosophical theories to me, but not really moral theories (and I think they attract a disproportionate amount of criticism).

Can you be more specific about what this journalist wants to talk about? What do you mean by risk mitigation when traveling? 

I don't share this view, and I agree that it is weird. But maybe the feeling behind it is something like: if I, personally, were in extreme poverty I would want people to prioritize getting me material help over mental health help. I imagine I would be kind of baffled and annoyed if some charity was giving me CBT books instead of food or malaria nets. 

 

That's just  a feeling though, and it doesn't rigorously answer any real cause prioritization question.

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 MacAskill (who I believe coined the term?) does not think that the present is the hinge of history. I think the majority view among self-described longtermists is that the present is the hinge of history. But the term unites everyone who cares about things that are expected to have large effects on the long-run future (including but not limited to existential risk). 

I think the term's agnosticism about whether we live at the hinge of history and whether existential risk in the next few decades is high is a big reason for its popularity.

Some loose data on this: 

Of the ~900 people who filled my Twitter poll about whether we lived in the most important century, about 1/3 said "yes," about 1/3 said "no," and about 1/3 said "maybe."

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I think that the longtermist EA community mostly acts as if we're close to the hinge of history, because most influential longtermists disagree with Will on this. If Will's take was more influential, I think we'd do quite different things than we're currently doing.

The original EA materials (at least the ones that I first encountered in 2015 when I was getting into EA) promoted evidence-based charity, that is making donations to causes with very solid evidence. But the the formal definition of EA is equally or more consistent with hits based charity, making donations with limited or equivocal evidence but large upside with the expectation that you will eventually hit the jackpot. 

I think the failure to separate and explain the difference between these things leads to a lot of understandable confusion and anger.