All of Richenda's Comments + Replies

Would that everybody would do this.

I have read the OP. I have skim read the replies. I'm afraid I am only making this one post because involvement with online debates is very draining for me.

My post is roughly structured along the lines of:

• My relationship to Kat
• My opinions about Kat's character
• My opinions about EA culture and risky weirdness
• My opinions about how we go about ensuring good practices in EA

Kat is a good friend, who I trust and think highly of. I have known her personally (rather than as a loose acquaintance, as I did for years prior) since summer 2017. I do not know Emer... (read more)

Yes!!!

the pain of rejection makes them reinterpret this as “You’re crap. Go away”. In fact my actual sentiment is so viscerally the opposite of this.

Bless you for posting this. That's exactly what it's like for applicants!

I'm a UK civil servant working on housing policy. I am flattered by this post 😂

@Neil_Dullaghan we should chat.

Strongly agree with this. While I was working on LEAN and the EA Hub I felt that there were a lot of very necessary and valuable things to do, that nobody wanted to do (or fund) because they seemed too easy. But a lot of value is lost, and important things are undermined if everyone turns their noses up at simple tasks. I'm really glad that since then CEA has significantly built up their local group support. But it's a perennial pitfall to watch out for.

Choosing how much and what of previous data to keep and use was a challenging decision which the team took very seriously. GDPR changed things quite a lot, and we have to factor in our responsibility to keep data private and secure. If people don't come back and reclaim old accounts, some on the team feel leery of holding onto data indefinitely because that might not be the most responsible thing to do. Additionally, we made functional and structural improvements to the site when we rebuilt that means it does not perfectly follow on from what was before, and we needed to prioritise.

The revamped EA Hub will be aiming to contribute to this problem.

In addition to what Peter describes, if we do a simple content analysis of forum threads or blog posts in the last 3 or so years, ETG feels like it's become invisible. Long term EAs like you and me most likely do still think it's cool because when we became EAs it was a huge part of it and probably a big part of what drew us in (in my case, certainly - I became an EA the year GWWC was launched). But that doesn't mean that this is the subtext that newer EAs are getting. I feel like the opposite is true, and I find that deeply concerning.

Couldn't agree more!

>"The problem (for people like me, and may those who enjoy it keep doing so), as I see it: this is an elite community. Which is to say, this is a community primarily shaped by people who are and have always been extremely ambitious, who tend to have very strong pedigrees, and who are socialized with the norms of the global upper/top professional class."

I wish this were shouted from the rooftops. Literally all the discourse around talent and jobs that I have come across to date in EA has frustrated me because of how this goes unremarked. As yo... (read more)

I second Howie's observation that there is just a really wide range.

Not just depending on neuroticism and other job applications but also writing talent. I expect people from physical sciences to take longer and find it more of a pain. I take between one hour and ninety mins for a cover letter, and I have four CVs that I modify slightly. So I don't often take more than two hours in total.

I doubt you're an outlier to be honest. Though I may swing more pessimistic than average.

I strongly prefer cover letters because they give me the opportunity to frame myself in the way that I think I should be seen.

My cautious guess would be that a bottleneck is groups actually identifying something to work on. Once they've set their course and found a good opportunity, from then it flows much more easily.

Yes, as you saw.. we separated out data from organisers and data from members. For groups with more than one organiser, we asked for them to nominate just one respondent to answer as 'organiser' and the others to fill out the survey as normal 'members'.

You're right that often there aren't good opportunities for groups to do anything direct, and so I've spent a lot of time thinking about whether LEAN can help in this regard. I think that a lot of the reason that groups struggle is to do with coordination. For instance, I received an email with a long list of voluntary activities from an EA org after I published this post. So definitely part of the issue is providing better conduits between organisations and groups. The reason this is difficult is because groups are often so transient. But if more projects... (read more)

My impression on this is there are large differences between "groups" on the "direct work" dimension. And it may be somewhat harmful if everybody tries to follow the same advice (there is also some value of exploration, so certainly not everybody should follow closely the "best practices").

Yes, I am very strongly of this opinion towards all advice for EA groups.

Hi Charlie. Thanks for your reply.

By prioritising direct work, we run the risk of losing people who would benefit greatly from, say, career planning sessions or 1-1 meetings. This is because even with the best people, being active in moving them through the funnel is super essential, and if you engage in a tradeoff with retaining people earlier in the funnel, it's very plausible that they will stagnate.

To be clear, I don’t suggest universally prioritising direct work over other activities, only that direct work (given its benefits) should be considered... (read more)

Thanks Charlie. Just posting to say I've seen this and will respond more fully soon!

Thanks Michal! I wish I had already read your post about fetishising the long term (which I'll do now!) as I definitely would have referenced it here! These are great additional points that I wish I'd written ;)

I agree totally that there are a lot of risks to conservatism and over-caution when it comes to taking action. Another metaphor I came across years ago was that 'you can't steer a car if it's not moving'. CZEA is a really inspirational example of striking this reflexive balance of doing, but doing in an experimental and analytical fashion.

Thanks Matej. Yes I agree entirely!

Changing a career is a direct action, but not everyone is able to do it all the time. It is important for groups to have the ability to engage people in tangible or more abstract way. I think this could diversify ea ideas, members, and avoid it to be a group of mathematicians and philosophers talking together, about their favourite subjects.

This is especially a really important point that I've also been thinking a lot. Our philosophers, mathematicians etc. are great, but there are many other personality and thinking t... (read more)

Also, communities in Brno and Bratislava have become more active after their members attended the retreat. This is fantastic!

I think I know what my next birthday party is:

Play cooperative board games about saving the world (e.g. Mansions of Madness) An AI Safety themed LARP

We don't have that, so we have to go by models, guesstimates, anecdotal personal experience, and expert opinion.

There is some relevant social research on it: https://rtcharity.org/2017-lean-impact-assessment-qualitative-findings/

RCTs, in my view would be unsuited to measuring anything actually useful about groups, however tempting the idea is. There are so many variables muddying the water for such assessment that you would end up just fabricating without realising.

Hi Dunja,

Actually there is empirical research on this! LEAN interviewed EA group organisers as part of the 2017 LEAN Impact Assessment, and actually face to face, in person experiences such as retreats and EAG frequently came up as the most significant, landmark influence for a fair few successful organisers in actually kick starting them into getting something going, and also giving them the confidence, reassurance and optimism to see it as a worthwhile investment of their time.

I was slightly surprised by how much of a big factor this was for people, but... (read more)

I've added this to the EA Groups Resource Map: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ATRWGcN3GLouaWJIa6Za3xbLe5nuk0CQHhwhsBLTDvA/edit#gid=0.

Thanks Risto!

I haven't heard of anything, I'm afraid.

I've been thinking for awhile that there's a surprising lack of historical research in EA. I mean not that surprising given the dominance of STEM backgrounds, but rather in the sense that it's such an obviously useful tool to exploit.

Thanks for sharing this. I'm looking forward to the second part!

Reflections like this are amazingly valuable for the movement building community. I'm especially interested in how you factored in the local context in order to choose the best strategy for EA in the Czech Republic. I also totally agree that it's great to hear perspectives that come from outside of the Oxbridge/Silicone Valley bubble - and even the anglophile bubble.

A lot of people are grappling with the issue of how to appropriate EA in non-English communities. I'll be sharing this report with each of those that approach LEAN with these challenges.

Hopefully when CEA develops the EA Forum in the coming months there will be a designated section for job listings :)

Hi Tobias. From what Sarah (developer of the CEA groups app) told me, the tool will provide a dashboard where organisers can use CRM functionality to track their members, categorise them, and communicate with them efficiently. The EA Hub does not plan to provide anything along these lines at all.

Since its launch in 2014, the EA Hub has offered:

• Personal profiles for EAs
• A donation registry
• A map of EAs and of EA groups
• Group profiles
• The EA wiki
• The EA Survey
• Various guides and information

The planned change will be to rearrange content and services so t... (read more)

"I’m not suggesting that quantitive facts should be ignored during the hypothesis generation stage, just that we need to understand the hypothesis space before we can choose appropriate metrics, otherwise we may artificially limit the set of theories that we consider."

I very much agree with this view methodologically. This is why we used qualitative research methods in addition to quantitative for the LEAN impact assessment. There is real risk of narrowing perspective and obscuring important factors from view if you commit to specific metrics ... (read more)

Hi Kevin, I'm sure some would benefit from more resources on moral theory. I think casebash is right, though, that we are comparatively strong on theory, but comparatively weak on available practical actions. With the LEAN programme we still have a fairly long wish list to deliver for groups on before we'd be in a place to be worrying about adding theoretical material. The responses in this assessment so far suggest that most organisers are very happy with the quality and variety of written resources that already exist, but that they want to see existing c... (read more)

I mostly agree. However there are definitely some strategic, management-level things that have to be decided when it comes to the Hub. There are an infinite number of fantastic ideas from EAs regarding what things they might want to see, and it's not a straightforward matter to judge how best to go forward. Particularly when it also means making sure we complement the platform that CEA is developing. Some factors include major choices about things like which codebase we continue with, creating a structure that allows highly skilled EAs in tech to contribut... (read more)

We agree about the EA Hub. However we were overstretched across too many projects, and have been in the process of identifying which things to prioritise, and which cost-effective things we can deliver to a high standard. This assessment and decisions in the next few months will be critical for the direction of the site.

Thanks Siebe, I'll add your suggestion to our list of stuff to do.

I'm glad Meetup.com was helpful for you guys. I think that there are demographic differences in terms of which places have strong Meetup.com participation and which places don't. In the UK I had never heard of Meetup.com until I became involved in EA. We know that it ends up being highly useful for a minority of groups, and non trivially useful for others. We allow people to experiment with it, but then aim to check in on groups every few months or so and close down the groups if it turns ou... (read more)

It's a fair question, and one I've been seriously thinking over since I took over LEAN. As Tee suggests, websites are enormously useful to a small number in a way that makes up for the time and resources 'lost' by making it available in cases where it doesn't pan out as that effective. Secondly, a lot of the answers we got in interviews amounted to 'well right now we haven't made use of our website, but that's because we don't have the tech manpower and need help to get what we want from this'. So I think there are groups that would be making good use of i... (read more)

Hi Rhys,

Yes, Universities are especially good environments in which to start EA groups for a number of reasons (lots of young people with plenty of free time who are actively reaching for new ideas, experiences and activities, a lot of infrastructural support from institutions, student unions, a captive audience, etc.)

We are very mindful of the differences between local groups and University groups. Internally we work on building expertise about these differences, and customising the support and advice we give based on the nature of the group in question. ... (read more)

I really like the idea of doing more to identify new potential cause areas. Vetting is really important, but I'm wary of the idea of anointing a specific EA org with sole discretion over vetting decisions. If possible, democratic vetting would be ideal (challenging though such arrangements can be).