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NickLaing

Country Director @ OneDay Health
5963 karmaJoined Working (6-15 years)Gulu, Ugandaonedayhealth.org

Bio

Participation
1

I'm a doctor working towards the dream that every human will have access to high quality healthcare.  I'm a medic and director of OneDay Health, which has launched 35 simple but comprehensive nurse-led health centers in remote rural Ugandan Villages. A huge thanks to the EA Cambridge student community  in 2018 for helping me realise that I could do more good by focusing on providing healthcare in remote places.

How I can help others

Understanding the NGO industrial complex, and how aid really works (or doesn't) in Northern Uganda 
Global health knowledge
 

Comments
806

Yep I agree with all of this nice one I like the way you put it. I haven't noticed so many posts/comment which I see as trying to "Muscle" Manifest, but there is some of that sentiment I think for sure. 

I feel like EA is close enough to Manifest (open Phil funding, EA organisers involved, advertising on the forum) that its fair enough for the forum to weigh in. Why do you think it's inappropriate for the forum to weigh in? Are you trying to curtail our free speech ;) (Jokes)

I don't really understand the argument about "the right" to speak or "the right" for manifest to platform whoever they want". Of course they can do what they want, and it's their org they can invite who they want. and then we can talk about it? This seems like a non-argument to me.

Yeah I would have upvoted the post aside from that - even though I agree with some of the OPs sentiment in the last 2 paragraphs, I really dislike conflating issues.

For sure when it comes to any internet based discussion, to promote quality discourse slowish long form >>>> rapid short form.

Yep I'd agree with that. I just hope the "silent" voters are engaged EAs/Rationalists and we don't have a small (but significant) number of trolls lurking skewing the voting. I would imagine though the forum admins have this under control.

Part of the reason I have some concern about this is that the voting pattern seems quite different on this post 3 months ago... https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/mZwJkhGWyZrvc2Qez/david-mathers-s-quick-takes?commentId=AnGzk7gjzpbMsHXHi

On the "platforming" question

I agree there's a big mix of disagreements, but I do think a lot of the negative comments are related to the platforming aspect, to which I feel like some of the replies (getting lots of upvotes like you say) strawman that a little by shifting the ground to "who are we to tell other people to talk to". 

For me the big issue is not allowing him to "attend" the event and talk to people (I agree we shouldn't tell people who to talk to), but the platforming itself. He was invited to the event by the organiser, listed initially as a speaker and then eventually attended as a "special guest". Personally I love talking to people with a wide range of views, even those I don't like or even people that could be considered "enemies". From my faith background Jesus spent a lot of time doing that and I try and do the same ("love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you")

I'm fairly confident this wouldn't have blown up (at least not to this extent) if he was just a regular attendee.

Completely agree on the sad irony front amplifying the platforming, although I think both Manifest and us debating can probably share the responsibility for platforming him more. I completely agree we should not demand strong negative reactions to someone, and that doing so makes the situation worse. 

"I think the biases in what positions people feel comfortable expressing publicly clearly go more in the direction of outrage here."

Two comments here. First in terms of comment number on the forum I would say it's pretty balanced. When it comes to voting (not public) I would say pro-platforming-Hananiah sentiment is more heavily upvoted in general

I also don't think "outrage" is an accurate reflection on the sentiment of tge majority of anti-platforming comments. Most comments have seemed like sober arguments about making attendees feel comfortable, the dangers of platforming edgy people who have made comments in the past that many consider racist, or avoiding bad press rather than irrational outage... You can make good arguments against these points but I would hardly label them as outrage.

Agree with the timezone voting thing. I should start posting at EU friendly times ;).

I think this is an important sentiment for many people to hear who might be feeling the same way but haven't seen this explicitly said anywhere. Thanks for making it. Don't be discouraged if the karma doesn't get too high because of downvotes as well, which I think is likely.

I 100 percent agree with that, which is where the wisdom comes in to choose not speak about many things.

I love this comment, it really helped me think about this.

To explore a little more, I had a small issue with this sentiment.

"Since by my values and temperament I would need to talk about what I found, whichever direction it was, and I don't see much value in learning these answers, however, I'm not going to look into this. A general commitment to seeking truth doesn't obligate one to investigate every possible question. I think a lot of people reason this way about low-payoff controversial areas and avoid them."

I completely agree with this as a guiding principle, and think it should probably usually be the default option for most people. "A general commitment to seeking truth doesn't obligate one to investigate every possible question." 

I think however that sticking to talking about every truth we find may not be a good idea, and I would bet you probably don't actually talk about every uncomfortable finding you have com accross. "Since by my values and temperament I would need to talk about what I found, whichever direction it was"

I get the general principle of talking about what we discover along the rather than staying quiet,  but I think there can be exceptions. If we do stumble across meaningful uncomfortable outcomes in either through our own research or on the internet or whatever, I think the best option might be to avoid talking about the issue at all. I'm not sure we ever "need" to talk about a research finding.

I agree with this statement "they have two main options: delude themselves into thinking reality is otherwise or accept reality and with it the implications." but think that in some cases we can accept reality and still choose not to talk about it, oreven  think about it very much, especially if talking about it is unlikely to lead to any helpful outcome.

I think the world in general is extremely unfair and there are quite a number of "unfortunate" and awkward truths even outside the realm of genetics, some of which might best to avoid talking about.

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