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Farmkind is currently running a Forget Veganuary campaign, directly proposing offsets as an alternative to veganism for members of the public wishing to participate in the farmed animal movement.

This has raised sharp questions about the relationship between animal welfare and veganism, both philosophically and strategically. For a summary of many different reactions to the Farmkind campaign, my post here might be useful.

This poll is meant as a place to discuss the broader strategic questions raised. 

First, a few things that are not the primary question:

  • Whether a vegan world is the goal:  most contributors would love to press a button making the whole world vegan. The question is whether insisting on veganism will result in our desired outcome sooner than an alternative strategy.
  • Welfare vs. diet change: the charities funded by Farmkind's campaign include both welfare campaigners and institutional diet change efforts.
  • "Forget Veganuary" framing: let's set aside particular questions about the execution/tone of Farmkind's campaign, unless you feel they are inextricably tied up in the larger questions.

I suggest you start by answering the poll, then engage with other views in the comments, and you can easily update your vote at any time.

We should present veganism as commendable, and offsetting as a legitimate stopping point for individual supporters.
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AK
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No, veganism is required
Yes, offsetting is valid

A few extra things to consider:

A soon-to-be-released section of Rethink Priorities' Pulse survey on behalf of Farmkind found (this is just one survey so update modestly):

  • Donations to farmed animal charities were seen as a significantly easier ask than diet change.
  • A message specifically framing donations as an easier alternative to diet change was not more effective than one just asking for donations.
  • Neither message negatively affected sentiments towards diet change.

If the framing of the poll doesn't make sense, this is a second post you might find thought-provoking. Summary of the arguments from the post:

  • With meat consumption skyrocketing and rates of veganism stagnant, strategies focused on individual veganism appear to offer only limited potential for animal advocates.
  • The small fraction who are vegan act as a symbolic vanguard, living out our vision for a world without animal exploitation. They also serve as the movement’s crucial activist base.
  • We must find a way to expand the movement beyond the small vegan population without alienating our most dedicated supporters.
  • The solution is to treat vegans as a priestly class, an elite cadre making a deep personal commitment to live out transformational values on behalf of a wider community, and deserving the utmost respect.
  • To achieve this, we must let go of the idea that veganism is for everyone. We must offer a low-commitment way for animal lovers to align themselves with the vegan movement.
  • Farmkind’s “offset” framing is the most general solution yet proposed, and it matches a rich historical precedent: the relationship between priestly/monastic elites and the lay communities that support them.

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I will write a few more posts on this. But my current, still uncertain, thoughts are:

-The main identity we promote in animal advocacy should be "animal advocate".

-"Animal advocate" should be more vaguely defined and primarily refer to a political commitment similarly to "feminist" and "socialist".

-We should abandon veganism as an identity and stop promoting it.

-We should separately push for different norms for animal advocates. Eating plant-based, avoiding animal-tested products etc. should each be advocated as separate norms.

-Priesthood(people working in animal advocacy) and laymen(mere members of the "animal advocate" identity) should be subject to different expectations.

-We should strongly push for norms against eating meat. Individual diet change should still be pursued.

-Consuming animal products shouldn't disqualify someone from identifying as an animal advocate. I'm not sure what the status of meat should be. I suspect a few countries like Germany might get to 10% vegetarian within my lifetime so I believe restricting our base to vegetarians might be viable in some places.

Oh, also, the idea that a 10% threshold for vegetarianism might be enough to shift to stigmatizing meat is super intriguing! I could see that backfiring without much obvious (to me) benefit and I'd love to hear more about your reasoning there.

I agree with all your points, except the one about abandoning veganism as an identity. I used to agree with this point, too. What moved me is the fact that veganism as an identity is a massive, organic phenomenon that isn't going away– at 2% of the US, we should expect around 7 million vegans who don't care a spec whether the formal/organized part of the movement decide to jettison veganism.

I argue that this organic spread of veganism is the only part of animal advocacy that deserves to be called a "movement," and that we should think hard about how to mak... (read more)

An interesting question I have regarding offsetting is whether it should just be measuring the negative aspects of contributing to animal suffering by increasing demand for factory farmed products, or whether it should also be considering the positives avoided by not being vegan (signaling value, increasing the demand for vegan products, other possible things).

Because if one were considering whether or not to be vegan or to donate $X dollars, they should probably consider the full counterfactual (positives foregone as well as negatives caused).

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We should present veganism as commendable, and offsetting as a legitimate stopping point for individual supporters.

I like the concept here, though I'm a little sceptical that it'll lead to the best consequences because Veganism might just be a simpler idea than Offsetting. 

AFAIK the idea of offsetting was first shared in reference to emissions from flights. My (non quantitative) take is that this wasn't very successful. A lot of flights offer some sort of charity donation at the end of the purchasing process, but they don't usually make the claim that you are offsetting your specific flight, and I don't think it would commonly be accepted by people who care about the climate that it is morally neutral to take a flight if you offset it. If anything it would generate more ire - you are covering your ass. 

I'm hopeful that this could go better with Veganism, but this scepticism (and my falsifiable take on the non-success of offsets for flights) mean I'm only a weak agree. 

Would you say your skepticism is mainly tied into the specific framing of "offsetting" as opposed to just donating? How would your answer change if the offset framing was dropped and it was just a plain donation ask?

I was surprised (and I assume Farmkind was too) that the Rethink survey found specifically contrasting donations against diet change didn't have any positive effect. If that pans out in the real world and the Veganuary offsetting campaign doesn't have better results than Farmkind's normal donation asks, I wonder how different it would seem to folks to just have an identity around donating as "membership" in the movement, similar to the NRA, Sierra Club, and other mass membership movement organizations.

Re: your poll, I'd say neither. Veganism and offsetting are both 'rearranging furniture on the Titanic'. The button I'd press wouldn't be to make everyone vegan in an instant, but to get cultivated meat on supermarket shelves at a competitive price point, in an instant. 

Nothing else (bar x-risks for humans) is going to end factory farming. As you say, meat consumption is skyrocketing, yet in animal advocacy we act like there isn't a viable alternative that is, or rather could be, on the table. 

So strong is my view on this that I'd go as far as to say that the way funding is allocated in animal advocacy is extremely ineffective. It should basically all be going towards scale-up grants or policy advocacy or whatever cultivated meat businesses need. 

But yeah the findings of the Pulse survey you mentioned don't surprise me. In the end I think this campaign was a load of hot air, probably not particularly helpful nor damaging either way. 

 

I don’t think we should spend an overwhelming majority of our resources on any one theory of change. We should spread our bets.

Liz Flynn
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80% disagree

I don’t think animal consumption can be offset by donating. A life isn’t something you can compensate for — it’s either taken or it isn’t. Treating it like a balance sheet misses the point.

Veganism matters as a baseline because it rejects animals as commodities. If people believe they can keep eating animals as long as they donate, animals remain products — just with a price attached. If demand continues, exploitation continues.

MatthewDahlhausen
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40% ➔ 60% disagree

I think the question is quite similar to the case of a doctor killing a healthy patient to use their organs to save five other sick patients.

Or as another comparison, using trafficked people for personal ends but donating enough to reduce human trafficking elsewhere.

People, and non-human animals, are not simply reducible to means to serve utilitarian ends.

But there are important consequentialist reasons that make the doctor killing patients fail in the real world. Once you live in a world in which people are being killed and the organs are being repurposed when they go to hospitals, people cease going to hospitals.

On the other hand, the differences in treatments in farmed animals are not going to trigger responses from said farmed animals that lead to such knock-on effects. You can simply look at the welfare consequences.

I think of it from the perspective I would have if I knew I would die and immediately be reborn as a chicken. Would I rather there be more Georges in the world who are vegan and do not contribute directly to the demand which causes my torture or Henrys who are omnivores and thus contribute directly to the torture, but donate an amount that neutralizes the effect and then some more?

If we actually care about welfare of animals more than we care about moral purity, we would rather there are more Henrys than Georges. 

A common qualification added to the healthy patient case is that the killing and distribution could be done in a way with plausible deniability, or it is done in a remote setting where the doctor is the only one who would know what happened. The central challenge of the case is on means versus ends, so make whatever adjustments you need to avoid the evasive rejoinder that not killing is in fact the more utilitarian option.

But lets turn to the other case I gave: would you be ok with others engaging in human trafficking if they donated enough to reduce human trafficking elsewhere? Would this absolve the morally blameworthy acts they commit? If not, then you are drawing a distinction not on the quality or quantity suffering, but simply on who is doing the suffering. If you seek to change my mind rather just reaffirming your own position, you are going to need a make a case that the who (human vs. non-human animal) is sufficiently metaphysically different to warrant using beings as means in one case but not the other.

I'm not drawing a metaphysical distinction between humans and animals. I care about welfare, full stop.

The difference is empirical, not metaphysical. Human suffering triggers compensatory responses from other humans that multiply the costs. People who learn hospitals might harvest organs stop going to hospitals. Communities that tolerate trafficking erode the trust structures enabling cooperation. Social fabric frays. These system-level effects make the total harm enormous and difficult to quantify. You can't reliably offset what you can't measure.

Farmed animals don't generate these dynamics. A chicken doesn't know some humans eat chickens while others donate to reduce chicken suffering. There's no institutional trust to erode, no behavioral adaptation that cascades through society. The welfare calculus is direct and measurable.

On the organ case: if you modify it enough to truly eliminate the systemic effects (no fear, no institutional erosion, no social knowledge of what occurred) then yes, I bite the bullet. Saving five lives at the cost of one is better than letting five die to keep one alive. If that conclusion seems monstrous, I'd suggest your intuition is tracking the systemic costs you've stipulated away, not the raw welfare math.

But we don't need to resolve exotic hypotheticals here. You're arguing from analogy to human cases where offsetting fails. It fails because of empirical features those cases have, not because human suffering can never be weighed against animal suffering.

Ultimately, for me, it all cashes out in the experiences of beings, whether human, chicken, or digital consciousness. That's what matters.

We should present veganism as commendable, and offsetting as a legitimate stopping point for individual supporters.


 The pro-animal movement should be a bigger tent than veganism. We should welcome different ways of being pro-animal including donations and civic engagement, like attending a protest or voting for a pro-animal candidate.

I’m tentatively excited about “offsetting” as a specific instance of donating, but I’m cautious about presenting offsetting as enough.

Veganism will remain an important part of many people’s political identity, including mine. (I like the priestly class comparison; it’s also sort of like political lesbianism). In my experience, veganism has helped me see animals as fellow creatures and unlearn my speciesism. 
I don’t want to put anybody off experimenting with veganism, especially because I want the committed “priestly” class to be as big and strong as possible.

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