All of Kirsten's Comments + Replies

I don't have an "in" but I'd love to hear the book discussed on Best Laid Plan (a podcast about planning) or Best of Both Worlds (a podcast about making work and life fit together, primarily aimed at mothers - better fit if someone at HIP can speak to combining parenting with a high impact career).

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Devon Fritz 🔸
Very interesting @Kirsten - thank you for the tips. I'll have my publicist follow up with those leads. I am a dad myself and have on my list to make posts on my Substack about insights from having kids and impact. I give advice to EAs about many things, but I've notice my takes on parenting lead to really long conversations and follow up in a way that makes me think it could be valuable to the community. 

In the EA space, people like Will sharing every thought they have could in some cases have negative effects because people in EA have a history of deferring (and it gets worse the more Will talks to EAs about EA).


If Will had a weekly podcast where he was like "Does lobster welfare matter? Ehh, probably not" and "I'd love to see an EA working on every nuclear submarine" that wouldn't actually be a good thing, even if he believed both of those points. I predict a small group of EAs would love the podcast, defer to it way too much, and adopt Will's opinions wholesale.


(I notice that all three of your examples are situations where you wanted people to adopt the public intellectual's opinions wholesale)

I find it annoying if people argue for a policy for reasons other than the ones that truly motivate them, although it is very instrumentally useful and I don't think it's necessarily morally wrong.


Declining to share an opinion on a topic (eg Kelsey not telling the public she was proposing for a global pandemic) seems completely fine? Unless I'm missing some context and she was writing about COVID in a way that contradicted her actual beliefs at that time? I agree it would have been better for her to share her beliefs but there is no rule that people, even public intellectuals, need to share every thought!

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Kirsten
In the EA space, people like Will sharing every thought they have could in some cases have negative effects because people in EA have a history of deferring (and it gets worse the more Will talks to EAs about EA). If Will had a weekly podcast where he was like "Does lobster welfare matter? Ehh, probably not" and "I'd love to see an EA working on every nuclear submarine" that wouldn't actually be a good thing, even if he believed both of those points. I predict a small group of EAs would love the podcast, defer to it way too much, and adopt Will's opinions wholesale. (I notice that all three of your examples are situations where you wanted people to adopt the public intellectual's opinions wholesale)

When on the fence, I ranked smaller and newer charities higher

Same - wrote about it once. https://x.com/kirsten3531/status/1400747953090969602?s=46&t=7jI2LUFFCdoHtZr1AtWyCA


>If I'm happy to buy you a beer or cover your portion of the Uber, why wouldn't I donate £5 or £10 to your fundraiser for a cause you care a lot about?

Glad to see people engaging with this consultation. My experience when I've done work reviewing consultation responses in UK government:

-put more weight on novel, well-supported arguments (so I'd recommend including a short, clear piece of strong evidence for your arguments)

-put more weight on responses from credible people or organisations with legible qualifications or expertise (so I'd recommend emphasising any legible qualifications, experience or affiliations - or if you don't have that, just presenting yourself as a normal private citizen)

-put less w... (read more)

Kids can't always easily explain what's going on. Even adults would have a tough time answering that question I think! Most would probably just say "... because I need to use the bathroom??"

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Rebecca
I would have thought ‘my tummy hurts’ would be fairly easy to articulate, but possibly I’m overrating the relevant abilities

I'd be curious to understand his views on the role of individual Christians and the Church as an institution in politics

We also experimented with an EAG in the Bay Area focused on Global Catastrophic Risks

Have you decided yet whether to run another GCR-focused EAG?

We're not currently planning to run another GCR-focused EAG, but we do plan on continuing to investigate what other types of events we could run, including cause-specific (e.g. GCR-focused) events.

Answer by Kirsten36
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Personally I'd be very interested in more content from policymakers or people who regularly influence policymakers! I don't normally go to EAGs because they don't really speak to my career but I would be much more interested in this kind of content.

Answer by Kirsten6
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I'm not sure I have an answer, but one thing I aim to do is save a good amount and enable charitable donations of 10% or more by keeping housing and other fixed costs lower than I could, rather than seeing my budget as just a tradeoff between giving and saving.

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NickLaing
I completely agree, using less money in our everyday lives is a huge Factor here which can easily be ignored. I also ask people to consider their generational wealth. Many people are set to inherit a lot of money with high likelihood but don't factor that into their saving/giving plans which seems weird to me at least with an EA framework. For example If we have a 80 percent chance of inheriting 500,000 Dollars then you can afford to save a lot less than someone who won't inherit anything. As a side note personally I find saving very much money quite hard to justify morally, especially if you have a solid safety net with government/family/friends but that's a whole nother discussion!

I absolutely agree! One thing I've been thinking about recently: I used to think that if I want to make a career move in the next 6 months, I should start out by applying to really ambitious jobs and then lower my standards. I'm rethinking this. I now think it's probably good to get better-than-now Plan B offers early on too, even if I end up turning them down, both because it helps me calibrate, but honestly much more importantly because it keeps me motivated! Getting even 3 or 4 rejections in a row can be really hard emotionally

The British civil service is really good for this. We don't pay as much at a senior level as the private sector, so instead we put a lot of effort into creating a good work culture with lots of training and feedback (of course still varies between departments and managers!).

It's also very easy to get experience presenting to boards or helping to hire people, and relatively easy to get management experience.

The year in question, when they decided to hold some cash for a few months, it was because they had been researching new giving opportunities that were 10x cash and wanted to be able to use the money for that, rather than dropping the bar. (GiveDirectly criticised them for this and said they should've effectively lowered their bar to 1x cash in order to use the funds as soon as possible; they thought GiveWell's decision would be indefensible to the world's poorest people.)

Answer by Kirsten10
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The section "What more donations will enable" from November 2023 looks relevant. Some excerpts below: https://blog.givewell.org/2023/11/21/givewells-2023-recommendations-to-donors/

"We set our cost-effectiveness threshold such that we expect to be able to fully fund all the opportunities above a given level of cost-effectiveness. Currently, we generally fund opportunities that we believe are at least 10 times as cost-effective as unconditional cash transfers to people living in poverty (i.e., “10x cash“). But there’s nothing magical about the 10x cash thre... (read more)

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Henry Howard🔸
That's a great link, cheers
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Kirsten
The year in question, when they decided to hold some cash for a few months, it was because they had been researching new giving opportunities that were 10x cash and wanted to be able to use the money for that, rather than dropping the bar. (GiveDirectly criticised them for this and said they should've effectively lowered their bar to 1x cash in order to use the funds as soon as possible; they thought GiveWell's decision would be indefensible to the world's poorest people.)
Kirsten
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A bit of feedback, since this is a sales piece and I do actually like Giving What We Can:

Saying that there's no good reason not to pledge if you're already donating 10% sits really poorly with me. It feels insulting that you've decided that my reasons aren't good enough and must be only based misunderstandings.

Even if my only reason not to pledge is that I've thought about it carefully and decided I don't want to, shouldn't that be enough?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I think the idea on that section is simply: "Some people think it only makes sense to pledge if you are not already donating 10%. But here's are some reasons to pledge even if you are already donating 10%, that you may not have thought of." It's not claiming those reasons are decisive, or that everyone, or even most people, who is already donating 10% should still take the pledge. The only misconception they're claiming is thinking that there is zero reason to take the pledge if you are already donating 10%.

I also really disliked this section. "Let’s say only one other person in your network hears that you took the pledge and is inspired to do the same."

I don't care if other people take the pledge! I only care if other people give, and give effectively.

If they'd be influenced to "take the pledge" because me taking the pledge, why wouldn't they be influenced donate a proportion of their income effectively by seeing me donate?

You can make the argument for why the pledge is more effective than just donating, but you haven't done it here.

That would make sense! I think the civil servant in charge might also have a certain level of discretion with regards to how they represent the results - I did in my case.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that more responses mean nothing, just that bringing up a sensible consideration is more likely to affect outcomes than copying and pasting a response (which may have between no weight and a little weight with the policymakers)

There weren't many, so I don't know unfortunately. In this consultation you'd have a better chance because it's about a public-facing issue

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Amber Dawn
Yeah, that's what I hoped. I couldn't honestly say that I would care about these labels (cos I don't eat animal products anyway), but I said stuff like 'consumers would like to know this', which I think is true.

I can confirm that copying and pasting doesn't move the needle, at least in consultations I've been involved with - they will put weight on people actually engaging with the ideas (Similarly feel free to skip or provide very short answers to questions you don't care much about and focus on the ones who care most about)

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Amber Dawn
That's interesting!  As a follow-up, in consultations you've been involved with, did they put weight on the thoughts on random members of the public, assuming the thoughts were sensible ofc?
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David M
For context, Kirsten has long worked for UK government departments.
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Toby Tremlett🔹
That's interesting! I was thinking there was a chance it did, because in a write-up about a similar public consultation on live animal transport, Defra used a lot of "X% of people thought Y" framings in their analysis (more details). It depends whether they count duplicated responses when they do this. 

I can imagine a first step would be it being offered as an option to mothers. Many late term abortions happen with wanted babies after a serious diagnosis.

However this post doesn't seem to talk about the main drug used for late abortions in the UK? So I'm sceptical. https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/ng140/chapter/Recommendations#medical-abortion-after-236-weeks

Kirsten
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This is entirely consistent with two other applications I know of from 2023, both of which were funded but experienced severe delays and poor/absent/straightforwardly unprofessional communication

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Jamie_Harris
I was funded with long delays. I wouldn't have said "straightforwardly unprofessional" communication in my case. It was a fairly stressful experience, but seemed consistent with "overworked people dealing with a tough legal situation", both for EVF in general and my specific grant. I did suggest on their feedback form that misleading language about timeframes on the application form be removed. It looks like they've done that now, although I have no idea when the change was made. (In my case this was essentially the only issue; the turnaround wasn't necessarily super slow in itself -- a few months doesn't seem unreasonable -- it's just that it was much slower than the form suggested it should be.)

Yes, this is consistent with my experience too. Bad calibration of expected timelines, unresponsiveness to (two) emails asking for updates or if they needed anything (over one month), and something I would also qualify as somewhat disrespectful: they asked for additional information that was already available in the initial application.

For me it means that they probably didn't read through completely before asking for more, besides the application being less than a dozen sentences long, one of them being "here are the relevant links" which contained all th... (read more)

I had a similar experience with 4 months of wait (uncalibrated grant decision timelines on the website) and unresponsiveness to email with LTFF, and I know a couple of people who had similar problems. I also found it pretty "disrespectful".

Its hard to understand why a) they wouldn't list the empirical grant timelines on their website, and b) why they would have to be so long.

Same here

Answer by Kirsten11
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If I'm truly stuck on a task - no matter how hard I try, my focus always slides off of it - I set a timer for 10 minutes. During those 10 minutes I give myself free licence to either work on that one task, or just sit in my chair. I often spend a few minutes noticing a variety of feelings. Eventually I often hit a thought like, "Well, I wish I could make progress on this, but I don't really even know what to do. How would I even start?" or "I want to do so much more but I'm just exhausted; I'm at my limit" or "I'm not sure this task is even that useful." That is generally the thought that gets me unstuck.

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John Salter
Learning to delay acting on urges, e.g. to quit or distract yourself, is a really powerful skill that I think everyone should learn. https://www.therapistaid.com/therapy-worksheet/urge-surfing-handout

"When life gives you Lemiens"?

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Joseph
Oh, that's not bad! Maybe I'll use that someday. 🤣  Unfortunately, I think that will encourage people to mispronounce my surname; it isn't pronounced less like "lemon" and more in a way that rhymes with "the mean" or "the keen."

Okay, sorry for misreading, the poll makes much more sense now! I've edited the first part of my comment at it doesn't make much sense

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Vasco Grilo🔸
I have not changed the text since I posted.

As a government employee, I have a duty to speak candidly internally and not to share restricted information externally. I suspect most organisations have weaker but similar norms about the difference between how you speak to colleagues and externals.

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Vasco Grilo🔸
Thanks for sharing, Kirsten!
Answer by Kirsten4
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My first question would be: is the particular suicide hotline you're looking at currently turning people away/making people wait a long time because of lack of volunteers? If so, every extra person could be very valuable.

If not, you might be replacing a less skilled volunteer. The question then becomes, how often would you save a life when they wouldn't? That's a hard question and it's not easy for me to know the answer, but it's probably not every night. Lots of people call a hotline with their mind already made up one way or the other.

What’s more, in areas that use primarily observational data there’s a really big gap between fields in how often papers even try to use causal inference methods and how hard they work to show that their identifying assumptions hold.

Just highlighting this paragraph because I think it's extremely important. As a policymaker, the vast majority of research I see from think tanks etc include poorly justified assumptions. It's become one of the first things I look for now, in part because it's an easy prompt for me to spot a wide range of issues.

Thanks for sharing your story, and for your family's sacrifice for the sake of those who need it most

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Harry Luk
Sorry if this is not the norm in the EA forum... I have to redirect this upwards. Glory to God :)

-13 karma from 5 votes for a comment that doesn't seem to break any Forum norms? Odd

You're right about the effort involved, but when these are real people who you are discussing deanonymizing in order to try to stop them from getting jobs, you should make the effort.

Well all three key figures at Nonlinear are also real people, and they got deanonymized by Ben Pace's highly critical post, which had the likely effect (unless challenged) of stopping Nonlinear from doing its work, and of stigmatizing its leaders.

So, I don't understand the double standard, where those subject to false allegations don't enjoy anonymity, and those making the false allegations do get to enjoy anonymity.

I raised some awkward questions, without offering any answers, conclusions, or recommendations.

I don't feel like you raised discussion with no preference for what the community decided. When I gave my answer, which many people seem to agree with, your response was to question whether that's REALLY what the EA community wants. I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that you're just asking a question when you clearly have a preference for how people answer!

Kirsten
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Whistleblower anonymity should remain protected in the vast majority of situations, including this one, imo

Whistleblower protection is necessary when Abe provides evidence that Bill harmed Cindy; otherwise, Abe lacks incentive to help Cindy. It is less important when Abe defends himself against harm caused by Bill.

How would you define the set of circumstances that are not in the "vast majority"? My initial reaction is vaguely along the lines of: lack of good faith + clear falsity of at least the main thrust of the accusation + lack of substantial mistreatment of the psuedonymous person by their target. But how does one judge the good faith of a psuedonym?

Even if the whistleblowers seem to be making serial false allegations against former employers?

Does EA really want to be a community where people can make false allegations with total impunity and no accountability? 

Doesn't that incentivize false allegations?

Yes, I've been wondering who's on Nonlinear's board for the better part of a year!

Before Ben's post, I had heard some good things and many bad things about Nonlinear, to the point that I was trying to figure out who their board members were in case I needed to raise concerns about one or both of the co-founders (I failed to figure it out because they weren't a registered charity and didn't have their board members listed on their website either).

Can I suggest you make this a new top-level post and link to it here? It sounds like you've been thinking about it a lot, and I think continued discussion would probably be better in its own post rather than here (although your original comment makes sense here for sure!)

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Vaipan

Yes, I meant some combination of this + this was not a good place to publish that allegation, which again imo harms the accuser if it's true. No worries at all Joel!

Yes, that's what I mean. If a friend of mine confided in me about something really bad that had happened to her, I wouldn't want to publish it 2/3 of the way down a post about my own drama, even if she said it was okay - and especially wouldn't then tell people not to believe her. But obviously I wasn't sitting in on the conversation and there might be important context I'm missing. It just seems really wrong to me.

Does it matter that she wanted me to share this? Are you going to say that she shouldn't be allowed to do it because you wouldn't want to do it?  

Sorry that was an error! I didn't know how else to see who had found it helpful on mobile, but I meant to untap it after I had checked

Kirsten
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"she said it was finally time to be strong and speak up now, as long as she was fully anonymized ... She’s still lying awake each night, replaying, over and over, the nightmare of what Ben did to her."

And then you publish it for the first time telling everyone not to believe her???

If what you describe is actually what she told you, how dare you use it for your own gain here? What a cruel and bizarre thing to do

While it's generally poor form to attempt to de-anonymize stories, since it's at issue here it seems potentially worth it. It seems like this could be Kat's description of Kat's experience of Ben, which she (clearly) consents to sharing.

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Larks

Isn't the implication that the (EDIT: alleged) victim gave consent for Kat to share anonymously?

She asked me to share this and is grateful I did.  

I think you might have misunderstood what I was trying to convey. I wasn't telling people not to believe her. I was telling people that if they heard the full story, there would be debate about whether what happened to her was bad/as bad as she made it out to be. 

I for one think that what happened to her was very bad. But I predict ~50% of EAs would disagree. 

Voted because of this, thanks for the nudge!

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Toby Tremlett🔹
Thanks for letting me know Kirsten! Good way to start the day :)

If we're thinking of it as "ideally I'd like 75% of the money to go here, 20% here, etc" we could just give people 100 votes each and give money to the top 3?

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harfe
This would be very similar to first-past-the-post (third-past-the-post in this case), and has many of the same drawbacks as first-past-the-post, such as lots of strategic voting. Giving a voice to people who's favorite charities are not wildly popular seems preferable (as would be the case with ranked-choice voting). The fact that you have 100 votes instead of 1 vote doesnt make much of a difference here (imagine a country where everyone has 99 clones, election systems would mostly still have the same advantages and disadvantages).
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abrahamrowe
Yeah definitely - that's a more elegant way.

Are you continuing your focus on the UK for the time being? I was surprised by the US picture

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JamesN
Yes we are, though I'm always ambitious on how we can expand! Unfortunately, the US picture was solely a choice to avoid any risk of copyright, and it looked slightly more impressive than the U.K. based images... However, I'll edit if it creates too much confusion.
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