Hide table of contents

When you choose to downvote EA Forum posts & comments, what's your reasoning for the downvote?

(I'm more curious about personal answers a la "these are the kinds of things that lead me to downvote" rather than theoretical answers a la "this is my theory for why the median EA Forum participant downvotes stuff.")

Sparked by Gordon's thinking on the matter: 1, 2, 3

6

0
0

Reactions

0
0
New Answer
New Comment


6 Answers sorted by

In order of frequency:

-I strong downvote spam (weekly)

-I downvote people for antisocial behaviour, like name calling (monthly)

-I sometimes downvote comments that are obviously unhelpful or wrong (I'll usually explain why, if no one else has) (every couple of months)

-I occasionally downvote posts if I don't think they're the type of thing that should be on the Forum (for example, they're very poorly written, very incorrect, or offensive) (a couple times a year)

I don't think I'm a typical user, though. I largely agree with the boo/yay theory, based on my experiences with diversity posts.

Most often I downvote posts when I'm reasonably confident that it would be a waste of time for others to open and read it (confused posts, off-topic, rambling, trivial, etc.)—my goal with voting is to make recommendations to others.

I rarely downvote comments, typically only when someone's not playing nice, but that's more on LW than here.

My general algorithm for voting is to vote up that which I would have liked to have recommend for me to read and downvote that which I would be disappointed if it were recommended to me, where the criterion for wanting something recommended is does it thoughtfully engage with a topic in a way that advances my understanding (and in the case that my understanding already includes what is presented, I try to imagine the case that I didn't know what I know and vote from that place of counterfactual ignorance). I don't vote on things that either fail to pique my interest or that I feel indifferent on having recommended to me.

Strong votes (up and down) go to things that I would, respectively, be visibly happy or sad if someone recommended it to me, i.e. someone sent me an email about it and I light up and smile or frown and droop when I read the content.

I rarely downvote EA Forum content.

When I do downvote, I downvote spam & bad-faith rhetorical moves (like ad hominem arguments).

I very occasionally downvote good-faith arguments that appear to have been constructed sloppily or in a rush, such that they don't address the arguments of the other interlocutor(s).

I share some of the other reasons put forth by other answers. But the best single factor I can use to explain the output of my system is the question I often ask myself: "Is this helpful?"

("Helpful" = giving people information they can use, improving the overall epistemic condition of the EA community, providing more utility than they require time to read/understand, making it more likely that good conversations will happen on the Forum in the future, etc.)

Spam is unhelpful. Insults are unhelpful. Sarcasm and snark are usually unhelpful and almost never actually helpful, with rare exceptions where they help someone get an important point across. Low-effort posts and comments that don't add substantive information are neither helpful nor unhelpful, so I generally don't vote on them.

Whether I disagree with an opinion or not has no bearing on whether it is helpful; I have to pay attention to other features of the opinion, like how well it uses sources to back up its claims or how clearly it is expressed.

I downvote posts when I disagree with them, they rely on an argument that is obviously faulty to me, and I think the current score is too high. I feel much freer to downvote if the current score is higher, and often ignore the second condition if it is particularly high.

I like having the vast majority of posts have a positive score, with only spam or name calling having a negative score, as it is on the EA Forum, but I don't really see an issue with yay/boo voting. It's hard not to interpret scores as a combination of agreement and good argumentation.

For what it's worth, the reason I dislike yay/boo voting is that it incentivizes people towards posting/commenting in ways that maximize applause lights at the expense of saying things that are more useful to other purposes, like becoming less confused and doing more good. I worry that the current voting system is too heavily suffering from Goodhart effects and as a result shaping people's motivation in posting and commenting in ways that work against what most people would prefer we do on this and its sister forums (though of course maybe many people genuinely want applause lights, though the comments on this post seem to suggest otherwise).

Curated and popular this week
 ·  · 5m read
 · 
[Cross-posted from my Substack here] If you spend time with people trying to change the world, you’ll come to an interesting conundrum: Various advocacy groups reference previous successful social movements as to why their chosen strategy is the most important one. Yet, these groups often follow wildly different strategies from each other to achieve social change. So, which one of them is right? The answer is all of them and none of them. This is because many people use research and historical movements to justify their pre-existing beliefs about how social change happens. Simply, you can find a case study to fit most plausible theories of how social change happens. For example, the groups might say: * Repeated nonviolent disruption is the key to social change, citing the Freedom Riders from the civil rights Movement or Act Up! from the gay rights movement. * Technological progress is what drives improvements in the human condition if you consider the development of the contraceptive pill funded by Katharine McCormick. * Organising and base-building is how change happens, as inspired by Ella Baker, the NAACP or Cesar Chavez from the United Workers Movement. * Insider advocacy is the real secret of social movements – look no further than how influential the Leadership Conference on Civil Rights was in passing the Civil Rights Acts of 1960 & 1964. * Democratic participation is the backbone of social change – just look at how Ireland lifted a ban on abortion via a Citizen’s Assembly. * And so on… To paint this picture, we can see this in action below: Source: Just Stop Oil which focuses on…civil resistance and disruption Source: The Civic Power Fund which focuses on… local organising What do we take away from all this? In my mind, a few key things: 1. Many different approaches have worked in changing the world so we should be humble and not assume we are doing The Most Important Thing 2. The case studies we focus on are likely confirmation bias, where
 ·  · 2m read
 · 
I speak to many entrepreneurial people trying to do a large amount of good by starting a nonprofit organisation. I think this is often an error for four main reasons. 1. Scalability 2. Capital counterfactuals 3. Standards 4. Learning potential 5. Earning to give potential These arguments are most applicable to starting high-growth organisations, such as startups.[1] Scalability There is a lot of capital available for startups, and established mechanisms exist to continue raising funds if the ROI appears high. It seems extremely difficult to operate a nonprofit with a budget of more than $30M per year (e.g., with approximately 150 people), but this is not particularly unusual for for-profit organisations. Capital Counterfactuals I generally believe that value-aligned funders are spending their money reasonably well, while for-profit investors are spending theirs extremely poorly (on altruistic grounds). If you can redirect that funding towards high-altruism value work, you could potentially create a much larger delta between your use of funding and the counterfactual of someone else receiving those funds. You also won’t be reliant on constantly convincing donors to give you money, once you’re generating revenue. Standards Nonprofits have significantly weaker feedback mechanisms compared to for-profits. They are often difficult to evaluate and lack a natural kill function. Few people are going to complain that you provided bad service when it didn’t cost them anything. Most nonprofits are not very ambitious, despite having large moral ambitions. It’s challenging to find talented people willing to accept a substantial pay cut to work with you. For-profits are considerably more likely to create something that people actually want. Learning Potential Most people should be trying to put themselves in a better position to do useful work later on. People often report learning a great deal from working at high-growth companies, building interesting connection
 ·  · 31m read
 · 
James Özden and Sam Glover at Social Change Lab wrote a literature review on protest outcomes[1] as part of a broader investigation[2] on protest effectiveness. The report covers multiple lines of evidence and addresses many relevant questions, but does not say much about the methodological quality of the research. So that's what I'm going to do today. I reviewed the evidence on protest outcomes, focusing only on the highest-quality research, to answer two questions: 1. Do protests work? 2. Are Social Change Lab's conclusions consistent with the highest-quality evidence? Here's what I found: Do protests work? Highly likely (credence: 90%) in certain contexts, although it's unclear how well the results generalize. [More] Are Social Change Lab's conclusions consistent with the highest-quality evidence? Yes—the report's core claims are well-supported, although it overstates the strength of some of the evidence. [More] Cross-posted from my website. Introduction This article serves two purposes: First, it analyzes the evidence on protest outcomes. Second, it critically reviews the Social Change Lab literature review. Social Change Lab is not the only group that has reviewed protest effectiveness. I was able to find four literature reviews: 1. Animal Charity Evaluators (2018), Protest Intervention Report. 2. Orazani et al. (2021), Social movement strategy (nonviolent vs. violent) and the garnering of third-party support: A meta-analysis. 3. Social Change Lab – Ozden & Glover (2022), Literature Review: Protest Outcomes. 4. Shuman et al. (2024), When Are Social Protests Effective? The Animal Charity Evaluators review did not include many studies, and did not cite any natural experiments (only one had been published as of 2018). Orazani et al. (2021)[3] is a nice meta-analysis—it finds that when you show people news articles about nonviolent protests, they are more likely to express support for the protesters' cause. But what people say in a lab setting mig