When people talk about women's negative experiences in EA, they act as if it happens because men just don't care about women's feelings.
I was banned from EAGs for a year. And I care about women’s feelings. I just don’t think we’re a good fit.
Examples/things that brought this mind
Thesis
Men who upset women in EA don’t care about women’s feelings.
Antithesis
I am a man who was banned from EAGs for a year, but I care about women's feelings.
Synthesis
Sometimes there are hard tradeoffs between people where neither party is obviously good or bad. In such cases it is better to acknowledge that we are actually making choices about what culture works for what group.
Preamble
I am an outgoing but clumsy person. I make friends a lot, flirt a lot. I get distracted easily and say things that seem true to me. In general, I think I bring a lot of joy to the world. But for a few, I upset them quite a lot.
And so, over a couple of years I had a number of run-ins with community health. Bad breakups, people who felt uncomfortable with ancillary touches or slightly flirtatious comments. To be extra scrupulous I asked upset people if they wanted me to report myself. I even asked community health for advice, to try and reduce the risk.
But even after that and though I was on my best behaviour, trying to be really careful, I was told I upset two more people and I was banned from EA events for a year.
That’s a pretty bad sign.
I cannot be that bad, because I'm allowed to attend events again. And nor is this article a diatribe against community health, who have a hard job and do it quite well. It's not even to profess my innocence—I imagine I did many of the things people report that I did.
I write this because I see and hear people like myself portrayed as uncaring. And I don’t think that’s true of me. I like many of the people I upset a lot. My internal experience is of caring about them.
And I also write this because there is a tradeoff here that people don’t want to talk about. Between clumsy men and sensitive women. And I am not asking for the situation to change—I have already largely left— but I think it’s a valuable conversation to have.
Evidence of caring
Here are some ways in which I see that I care:
- I think about how to not upset people while talking to them
- If I upset someone, I asked if they wanted me to tell community health
- I asked community health for advice about upsetting people less
- I always made clear that people could tell whoever they wanted
- Towards the end I would ask even close friends if I could hug them
- At the end, I was being as careful as I could be
But still people were upset (earlier cases, I know what I did, later ones I have no idea)
Even so, I care still:
- People’s sadness is bad, even if has caused me pain
- I have thought about this for many hours
- I have gotten feedback from friends
- I have tried to learn more about this
How did this happen?
I’m not going to talk about specific events. But there were a number of small incidents.
It was a range of upset partners, small touches people didn’t like, comments people didn’t like and some I don’t know of.
How did this happen so often?
I grew up in quite a touchy culture and so I used to touch people on the arm a lot while talking to them. I’m not great at reading facial expressions so sometimes I misunderstand people. I am attractive enough that people do actually want to date me so I become close to people. I am social enough that I think people assume I understand what I am doing. I have a tendency to focus on straight talking rather than kindness when things get heated.
Why was I dismissive of people I dated?
I guess I just wasn’t tracking it. I felt like it was pretty clear that I liked and respected my partners. I did lots of things in my own mind that showed that I cared about them. I now acknowledge the error and am sorry, but at the time, it was just very easy for me not to notice, or focus on caring for them in other ways (which perhaps they didn’t notice). I do not think my behavior, if explained would seem deeply unacceptable.
How could I stand so close to random people at parties, or touch them on the arm?
I’ve always been told I don’t have a great grasp of personal space. In some sense I don’t know what your experience of it is. How do you know how close to stand? Can you feel, somewhere, that someone is crowding you? Can you sense when they move back? I can start to notice some of that, but only if I’m really paying attention. And mostly I am not.
How could I think that flirty action was appropriate?
Well often I am tracking a history of some flirting. I don’t just jump to level 10. In most of the times someone has been upset, I’ve either asked, or we’ve talked about sex before (or sexted) or they were a close friend. I acknowledge that I have made errors, but also, sometimes things go really well? Sometimes the kind of thing that one person thinks is entirely unacceptable, another thinks is fine, or good.
Suffering matters, including mine
It seems natural to focus on the women who suffer here. If it is anyone’s fault, it is mine. And I do take responsibility for changing my behaviour.
But conscious experience matters. And I am conscious too.
And I suffer. I have hurt across months over this. I have lost friends. I hear rumours about myself that don’t match my recollection. I have no recourse to challenge or understand.
And isn’t it possible that this wasn’t anyone’s fault? That there were different norms and expectations and actions that would have been reasonable elsewhere hurt people.
I am glad we listen to those people, but I would like us to also listen to me.
I don’t think we’re a good fit
I don’t think we are a good fit.
And I have mostly stopped going to EA events.
I don’t want to upset people even when I’m trying my hardest, and I don’t feel safe in an environment where my actions are misinterpreted.
EA used to be a community where I felt more welcomed. I've come to realize that the current form of EA is not great for me because, despite my good intentions, I cannot "be myself" without hurting some subset of women and the community will side against me if this happens.
I’d like us to be honest about this
It's ok if the community decides to value the comfort of some subset of women over guys like me.
But I wish we acknowledged this trade-off. And I think a more mature community would have discussions about what norms they want. I think it’s bad that we don’t.
I agree that discomfort is bad, too.
But I also wish we acknowledged that there is value in physical contact among friends or even casual romantic interactions.
There is a tradeoff here too.
This is a hard problem, and we can't satisfy everyone. But ultimately, the guys upsetting people aren't necessarily bad people. There are other ways that bad outcomes can result. I hold myself responsible, but I’m not a bad person. I’m a person.
To those I have upset, I am sorry. I would take it back if I could.
Although you haven't asked for advice, and imply that you're on your way out of the EA community, I am going to offer some advice anyway. I don't think the issue you describe is particularly uncommon here, and individuals with somewhat similar issues may be reading this thread.
This isn't the advice I would give after most first or even second complaints, but I think it is warranted after a string of incidents significant enough to warrant a year-long EAG ban (and probably at least some version of it was warranted at some juncture before that).
I submit that, if you were to return to in-person EA spaces,[1] you really need to employ some bright-line rules to prevent future harm while in those spaces. For instance: No flirting. No touching women.[2]
Based on your narrative, it seems that your best efforts at avoiding harm while employing more flexible standards are not succeeding. If following judgment-based standards are not avoiding harassment,[3] then I don't see another viable option other than bright-line rules. And those will have the usual downside of bright-line rules -- they will rule out some behavior that would actually have been OK.
Although you characterize the situation as the community deciding "to value the comfort of some subset of women over guys like me" (emphasis added), I would characterize it as the community valuing fellow community members' right to bodily integrity and right to a harassment-free experience over your interest in continuing to interact with women in ways a number of them find inappropriate and/or offensive enough to have reached out to Community Health.
These sorts of rules are necessary in some professional spaces for some actors (for instance, psychiatrists and other mental health professionals). It seems that they would be necessary for you in EA spaces.[4] While I'm not suggesting that a bright-line rule against flirting is necessary for EA spaces in general, I think it may often be necessary for those who have a history of harassing behavior.
I recognize that creates a burden for you that others do not have to bear. But it does not impair your ability to participate in the core of what EA is. And some differential burden is unavoidable in life.
For example, there are a number of reasons that are not a person's fault that nonetheless can make them unsuitable to drive a motor vehicle (or do so only under limited conditions) -- extreme clumsiness, severe anxiety disorders, blindness, seizure disorders, etc. People are morally culpable (and expose themselves to criminal liability) if they recklessly [5] keep driving even after it is clear that their condition renders their continued driving an unacceptable risk to other road users. Ultimately, it is not enough that these individuals care about avoiding harm, they have to stop driving at least once it is clear enough that no lesser alternative will protect other road users' rights.[6] Based on your post, I think you may be in a roughly analogous situation here.
I recognize that it may be difficult to discern exactly what counts as an "EA space," and am cognizant of the downsides of extending EA "jurisdiction" as it were too far into people's private lives. I'd suggest that anything that happens in the city of an out-of-town EA event, or on the day of an in-town one, is very likely to involve an EA space. This definition is doubtless underinclusive. For instance, I would consider most parties with a bunch of people who are EAs to be "EA spaces," similar to how I would usually treat a party with a bunch of people from the same office/employer as a work-related event for harassment purposes.
I also recognize that the question of interactions with EAs outside out "EA spaces" is outside the scope of this response.
I am assuming from your framing that all the complaints have involved women.
Given the number of reports to Community Health, I feel confident that this is the correct characterization.
What rules you should follow outside EA spaces is largely beyond the scope of this comment. It is likely that you should follow similar rules in at least some contexts -- e.g., where the other party is on the job, and thus their ability to extricate themselves from an uncomfortable situation is limited by that status. On the other hand, certain other social spaces may warrant less restrictive rules.
Lightly adapting from the Model Penal Code, recklessness exists when an individual "consciously disregards a substantial and unjustifiable risk that" a certain kind of harm "will result from his conduct."
Readers who live in areas with good public transportation may underestimate how severe the impact of losing the ability to drive is for most people in the United States.
Yes, I agree. And I did this, but I still got several complaints. At this point, I am not sure how I could be more careful than I was at the end. I'm not exaggerating. I wasn't flirting at all or touching people (I asked my friends before I did, and didn't touch anyone else).
"I recognize that creates a burden for you that others do not have to bear. But it does not impair your ability to participate in the core of what EA is. And some differential burden is unavoidable in life. "
Yeah I don't totally disagree here.