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I don't think it's as simple as "well low income countries just need to follow the science of development". And it's definitely not simple if you're implying that people in rich countries should be helping poor countries do that. There is a history of even the World Bank giving low income countries bad advice especially regarding free market principles versus intentionally growing local skills and capabilities under protective tarrifs to the point of competitive exports (in the 80s and 90s). And you can also read about how scientifically sound development initiatives fail in books such as The Anti-Politics Machine (also written in the 80s - there's a review that covers the main concepts here https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/your-book-review-the-anti-politics?hide_intro_popup=true ). Also, low income countries need good leaders who are dedicated to increasing the GDP in a scientific way, but even if they are lucky enough to have elections, the people on the ballot are not that - this is why land reform, an important part of how some Asian countries developed in to releatively rich countries today is not likely to work (https://rethinkpriorities.org/research-area/intervention-report-agricultural-land-redistribution/). Institutional development economics doesn't say anything about what to do when a country is stuck in bad political equilibria, which seems to be the main barrier to development right now.

While there's probably some necessary role for people from high income countries engaging with low countries to get them to try development interventions (especially when it comes to issues like corruption and election tampering where an outside power can make a big difference), i think it would be much more meaningful for high income countries to get their act together and be well run so that there's a clear north star for what good policy and good governance looks like. It doesn't work right now because there aren't any high income countries who have good policy and good governance who are obvious examples for other countries to look up to. And I think a big part of the reason why is that we treat poor people within high income countries the same way we treat low income countries -- as an individual failure rather than a policy failure.

Done right this would look like strengthening antimonopoly laws so that anyone who has a good idea can bring it to market. Limiting campaign finance so that corporations don't have more say over laws and regulations than regular citizens, so that they can't enrich shareholders at the expense of the public good (Uber and Lyft's 180M dollar opposition to giving gig drivers employee benefits in California stands out to me). Reducing public input on new developments to prevent home owners from obstructing new construction to raise their own home values (and everyone else's rent). I live in California and I want to demolish Prop 13 to bring back public school funding so that education can be the great equalizer, instead of transmuting education value from younger generations into wealth for older generations who were lucky to buy their homes before the housing crisis. Essentially, this is about bringing back the American Dream, the idea that if you work hard you will make money and be able to improve quality of life for you and your loved ones. If it works here then it will be much easier to export and make it the global dream.

This isn't about making rich countries richer, it's about aligning incentives so that the money you make is more closely related to how much value you add to the world. It's about having a system that intrinsically maximizes good.

See in context

New Focus Area: Abundance and Growth

by Open Philanthropy

Mar 111 min read 33

71

Global health & developmentOpportunities to take actionEconomic growthOpen PhilanthropyProgress studiesScientific progressAnnouncements and updatesJob listing (open)Organization updates

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This is a linkpost for https://www.openphilanthropy.org/research/announcing-our-new-120m-abundance-and-growth-fund/

We are excited to announce the launch of the Abundance and Growth Fund, which will spend at least $120 million over the next three years to accelerate economic growth and boost scientific and technological progress while lowering the cost of living.

We’re grateful for support from Good Ventures, which has committed $60M, and from the other private individuals who matched them. We’re also grateful for a contribution from Patrick Collison, who helped launch the Progress Studies movement.

We launched the fund because:

Economic growth has transformed global living standards, and further growth could deliver vast improvements to health and well-being.
Innovation is a key input to growth; economists and our own researchers estimate that R&D and scientific research have very high social returns.
We have strong evidence that it’s possible to boost growth and innovation by removing existing constraints; there are many positive examples to point to where alternative systems have enabled faster progress.
We thought the timing was right. (See below.)

We’ve long been one of the most active philanthropic funders in the pro-abundance and pro-growth movements, particularly in land use reform and innovation policy. We chose this moment to double down because:

We feel encouraged by the recent rise of the Abundance and Progress Studies movements, which advocate for economic growth and material progress.
We’ve seen cross-partisan interest in areas like zoning reform, energy permitting, and science policy.
We learned a lot from launching the Lead Exposure Action Fund, which helped us quickly establish a similar pooled fund for abundance and growth.

See our blog post for more detail on all of these points.

With the launch of the Fund, we’re also launching a search for a program leader to manage it on a permanent basis. They will have significant autonomy in shaping the Fund’s direction and strategy. The application deadline is 3/31. We encourage you to check out the job description and apply yourself, or recommend someone who you think would be a strong candidate.

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Ozzie GooenMar 12*92

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to ask this^[1], but I'm curious if people at OP think that this is cost-effective with other areas they are working on. Or more broadly, I'm curious if there's any public argument of effectiveness on this.

The public communications seems to emphasize reasons why this field is promising, not reasons why it's a good trade-off vs. other top fields. This seems similar to the sort of logic that all philanthropic donors use - it's possible to find reasons why basically all philanthropic areas are promising.

I don't believe there's been cost-effectiveness estimation posted publicly, for instance.

Overall this seems very much going in the direction of more traditional center-leftist/tech[1] philanthropy. I think that this sort of philanthropy is often net-good, but obviously there's a gap between it and the things we generally regard as effective altruism.

[1] Here I mean something like "center-left in the US"

^{^}
This full comment got far more attention than I was expecting, I didn't spend much time crafting it. I agree that "allowed to ask" is probably the wrong way to describe my reluctance, and I've explained my views much more in subsequent comments.

Alexander_BergerMar 13*56

Thanks Ozzie, you’re definitely allowed to ask questions like this! We won’t always be able to answer but we welcome questions and critiques of our work.

Our innovation policy work is generally based on the assumption that long-run health and income gains are ultimately attributable to R&D. For example, Matt Clancy estimated in this report that general funding for scientific research ranged from 50-330x in our framework, depending on the model and assumptions about downside risks from scientific research. In practice we currently internally use a value of average scientific research funding of 70x when evaluating our innovation policy work. Of course, 70x is well below our bar (currently ~2,100x), and so the premise of the program is not to directly fund additional scientific research, but instead to make grants that we think are sufficiently likely to increase the effective size of R&D effort by raising its efficiency or productivity or level enough to clear the bar. Moreover, while most of our giving in this program flows to grantees in high-income countries operating on the research frontier, the ultimate case is based on global impact: we assume research like this eventually benefits everyone, though with multi-decade lags (which in practice lead us to discount the benefits substantially, as discussed in Matt’s paper above and this report by Tom Davidson).

Our innovation policy work so far has cleared our internal bar for impact, and one reason we are excited to expand into this space is because we’ve found more opportunities that we think are above the bar than Good Ventures’ previous budget covered.

We also think our housing policy work clears our internal bar for impact. Our current internal valuation on a marginal housing unit in a highly constrained metro area in the US is just over $400k (so a grant would be above the bar if we think it causes a new unit in expectation for $200). A relatively small part of the case here is again based on innovation - there is some research indicating that increasing the density of people in innovative cities increases the rate of innovation. But our internal valuation for new housing units also incorporates a few other paths to impact. For example, increasing the density of productive cities also raises the incomes of movers and other residents, and reduces the overall carbon footprint of the housing stock. Collectively, we think these benefits are large enough to make a lot of grants related to housing policy clear our bar, given the leverage that advocacy can sometimes bring.

We’ll be evaluating new sub-areas as we go to make sure that they are also generally above our impact bar, but we suspect that the same logic of large potential importance will mean that policy changes that make even modest improvements to areas like clinical trial regulation, energy permitting, etc. could be highly impactful.

In terms of scale, while this is a significant expansion of Open Phil’s overall work in the space, it’s a modest expansion of Good Ventures’ (from ~$15M to ~$20M/year). The remaining funding is coming from other donors. As we wrote in our annual review last week:

One implication of our growing work with other donors is that it’s increasingly incorrect to think about Open Philanthropy as a single unified funder making top-down decisions. Increasingly, our resources come from different partners who are devoted to different causes and have different preferences and limitations for their giving. Their philanthropic dollars are not fungible, and we would be doing them a disservice if we treated them as if they were... it’s clearly less true than in the past (not that it was ever perfectly true) that the distribution of grants we advise across causes reflects our leadership’s unconstrained recommendations.

NickLaingMar 15*16

First great job getting other funders on board here I love that. I've got a coupke of queries here for things that I didn't write understand

"We also think our housing policy work clears our internal bar for impact. Our current internal valuation on a marginal housing unit in a highly constrained metro area in the US is just over $400k (so a grant would be above the bar if we think it causes a new unit in expectation for $200)"

I don't understand what this means, is there a report or something you could link to which explains it?

Also I read the report you linked on R and D where it didn't clear the funding bar. That said 45x, you were pushing that up to 76x

"In a highly stylized calculation, the social returns to marginal R&D are high, but typically not as high as the returns in some other areas we’re interested in (e.g. cash transfers to those in absolute poverty). Measured in our units of impact (where “1X” is giving cash to someone earning $50k/year) I estimate the cost effectiveness of funding R&D is 45X. This is 45% the ROI from giving cash to someone earning $500/year, and 4.5% the GHW bar for funding. More."

I understand that you think you can raise efficiency of certain types of R@D, but getting from 70x to 2100x means you would have to 30x the efficiency. I struggle to understand how that would be likely again any pointers here?

Alexander_BergerMar 15*22

Thanks Nick.

On the housing piece: we have a long internal report on the valuation question that we didn't think was particularly relevant to external folks so we haven't published it, but will see about doing so later this year. Fn 7 and the text around it of this grant writeup explain the basic math of a previous version of that valuation calc, though our recent version is a lot more complex.

If you're asking about the bar math, the general logic is explained here and the move to a 2,100x bar is mentioned here.

On R&D, the 70x number comes from Matt Clancy's report (and I think we may have made some modest internal revisions but I don't think they change the bottom line much). You're right that that implies we need ~30x leverage to clear our bar. We sometimes think that is possible directly through strategic project selection - e.g., we fund direct R&D on neglected and important global health problems, and sometimes (in the case of this portfolio) through policy/advocacy. I agree 30x leverage presents a high bar and I think it's totally reasonable to be skeptical about whether we can clear it, but we think we sometimes can.

NickLaingMar 152

Thanks @Alexander_Berger that all makes complete sense, appreciate the clear and comprehensive reply - all the best with this work. Predictably basic me especially likes the direct RandD on neglected Global Health :).

Ozzie GooenMar 12*25

[Edit: Note that @Alexander_Berger from OP provided a lengthy response, after I wrote this.]

My quick guess is that people at OP won't want to (publicly) argue that this area is cost-effective with other top areas.

It's their money, I won't complain.

But at the same time, I want to avoid the trap of people on this forum assuming that their work is justified as being cost-effective with other top areas.

I think it's easy for both:
1. OP doesn't argue that its work represents Effective Altruism
2. Many people around Effective Altruism defer greatly to OP, and assume its actions are cost-effective in EA ways^[1]

So to be clear, I think that typically, only one of those two points will be true. I assume it's (1). And correspondingly, I imagine that many Effective Altruists should understand not to make many assumptions using public OP announcements like this about which topics are cost-effective.

There's obviously one semi-interesting question, which is, "Okay, but then why should this announcement from OP be shown on the EA Forum, but not similar announcements from the Gates Foundation or similar?" This seems like a tricky question to answer. I think it's good that this was posted here, but hope that readers don't assume the wrong things about what it means. I assume that this was posted here roughly because OP is an org important for EA, not because OP is trying to argue that this is necessarily an EA cause.

^{^}
By this, I mean, "Cost-effective in the sense that other EAs might themselves donate or contribute to the area." Not in a sense like, "From OP's specific perspective, this action accomplishes specific goals that makes it cost-effective for OP money specifically"

NickLaingMar 1212

Thanks this is super helpful. I was trying to get my head around this announcement and that really helps.

Also to state the maybe obvious, you are allowed to ask whatever you want, and they are allowed to answer it or not! I for one appreciated the question in and of itself regardless of whether it gets answered

Ozzie GooenMar 139

Clarifying this a bit more (from seeing the comments):

I assume that people close to this decision have reasons why they think this makes sense for OP, as a way to maximize OP's contributions at some level.

This might well be for reasons like:
1. This could be a good experiment in OP collaborating with other philanthropists.
2. This could be a good way for OP to gain recognition by other important parties.
3. Maybe Dustin Moskovitz really wants this, and this is a way for other OP leaders to come to some agreement where they get more clearly-efficient funding for something else.
4. Maybe OP could learn other useful things by doing this that will lead to wins in other areas.
5. Maybe this is a cause area that does well if one uses some weighted average of different philanthropic views.

I don't have a problem with OP doing this, and don't mean to claim they're not trying to maximize impact in some way.

At the same time,
1. I think that we (i.e. effective altruist enthusiasts reading public information) just don't know how they justify this internally. I wouldn't be surprised if we never find out. As others have flagged, it's likely that revealing the true reasons might make their work less effective.
2. Again, there's an important question of what EAs should take away from this. And I imagine we shouldn't assume that "This is generally an effective cause area for other regular EA funding and talent, outside of OP." It seems likely that a lot of the benefit here is fairly specific to the strategy and interests of people at OP.
3. There's one related topic of "Is there any delineation in what projects EAs might consider EA/effective/interesting?" The more causes are justified on grounds that aren't clear and transparent, the messier this gets. Lots of other philanthropists and leaders also do major things that aren't directly effective, but that they think will ultimately be best for the world.
4. While I'm sure it's the case they have some reasons they think this makes sense, I think it's reasonable for onlookers to be skeptical that it's actually worth it. To me, this venture rhymes a lot with the common mistake that many organizations make of over-extending themselves. I personally am probably more worried about the managerial attention they may spend on this than the $60m.
5. If one goes all the way on the idea that "private reasons make it likely that this is a good move, so we shouldn't try to evaluate it from the outside," one might assume that "All kinds of public critique of all organizations are invalid, because all organizations might have secretive information that makes their decisions unusually justified." I think that public critique and evaluation is still important to attempt. I also think that OP is one of the most important groups to understand and critique, just because of it's outsized impact around EA.

Other miscellaneous points:
1. Obviously, I find it interesting that this fairly-short press release has led to so much theorizing on our end. (perhaps me in-particular, as I've written a lot of the comments)
2. I think it's kind of telling that OP hasn't paid many people to directly engage with the EA Forum or other EA discussion. For example, I wouldn't expect that it's anyone's job to respond to comments in these threads. This is almost ironic given that they pay for the CEA team, including the EA Forum team. But I think that they consider open communication about these topics, from OP team members, to be highly costly, and I correspondingly don't expect them to provide much more insight on this or similar topics to our community. If I were to put myself in their shoes, I think they have a lot of worries about what other potential large donors, political actors, and other specific groups think about them. And they're less concerned about the EA community. One thing this means is that PR statements like this won't generally provide much information that the EA community in particular would care about.

NickLaingMar 163

I guess this comment is now obsolete/wrong given Alexanders reply? I still appreciate it! Maybe worth flagging that with an edit or something?

Ozzie GooenMar 163

Sure, added with an edit.

ezrahMar 1218

Speculation only:

It seems plausible to me that the value of funding "Abundance and Growth" in the USA is not measured in QALYs, but in supporting a political alternative to Trump and MAGA. The "center-left" vibes might not be a bug, but a feature.

If you think USAID cuts are important, and AI is important, and that Trump is net-negative on both of these, maybe the most impactful thing you can do is support alternative narratives to Trumpism and help ensure he doesn't get re-elected and that you swing the house as far as possible. Of course, it needs sound bi-partisan and not in-your-face, but "Abundance and Growth" is pretty clearly at contrast to the current administrations policies.

This both explains why OP won't publicly their reasoning for this, and why it might be as cost-effective in EV as other options.

Ozzie GooenMar 135

I'd flag that Dustin Moskovitz is a top Democratic donor. He certainly doesn't seem to have a problem directly donating to support Democrats. So I don't see a need to donate to Abundance as a way to counter Trump while being bi-partisan.

That said, I know that Abundance-proponents do consider it as an area that has wide-ranging positive effects. So while "reducing political extremism" might not be the only purpose, I wouldn't be surprised if it was part of the pie.

https://www.opensecrets.org/donor-lookup/results?name=Dustin+Moskovitz

JWS 🔸Mar 133

I think the theory of change here is that the Abundance Agenda taking off in the US would provide an ideological frame for the Democratic Party to both a) get competitive in the races in needs to win power in the Executive & Legislature and b) have a framing that allows it to pursue good policies when in power, which then unlocks a lot of positive value elsewhere

It also answers the 'why just the US?' question, though that seemed kind of obvious to me

And as for no cost-effectiveness calculation, it seems that this is the kind of systemic change many people in EA want to see!^[1] And it's very hard to get accurate cost-effectiveness-analyses from those. But again, I don't know if that's also being too harsh to OP, as many longtermist organisations don't seem to publicly publish their CEAs apart from general reasoning like about "the future could be very large and very good"

^{^}
Maybe it's not the exact flavour/ideology they want to see, but it does seem 'systemic' to me

David Mathers🔸Mar 1217

What makes it leftist? If anything my immediate reaction is that abundance is in some sense right-coded in that it's about unleashing markets. Maybe more British right and pre-Trump American right than current right.

(Mostly a nitpick, as I don't want Open Phil doing centrist or libertarian or centre-right coded things rather than what's most effective either, and I think strongly upvoted your comment.)

Matrice JacobineMar 173

I contend. OP (no pun intended) cites both the Abundance Institute and Progress Studies as inspiration, a cursory look at the think tank sponsors and affiliations of the people involved in those show that they are mostly a libertarian-ish right-of-center bunch.

Ozzie GooenMar 122

Sorry, that was confusing on my end.

When I said "left" I was thinking "center-left in the US, of the type close to Bay Area tech." Agreed that the right of other countries are much more open to this sort of thing.

I think the current US MAGA focus seems pretty clearly not what this is targeted to, at least. They seem pretty distant from many of our epistemics.

BenjaminTereickMar 12*6

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to ask this [...].

Maybe you don't mean this literally, but I find this really sad ~~kind of horrifying~~. Who do you think wouldn't allow you to ask this question, and why?

Ozzie GooenMar 1216

Sorry, I was unsure how to express that.

I think there are a lot of implicit social agreements at work here. I know that a lot of people in positions in power often don't want to spend much time being questioned or addressing points they find disagreeable.

My impression is that a lot of public statements from major organizations come with expectations like this. But these expectations aren't typically explicit, which I find makes them difficult to reason about.

Historically, I know that many people with power around OP don't seem to engage much with comments on the EA Forum. For example, when I look through Holden's posts, I don't see many comments/responses from him. (with a good exception being this recent post!)

Or see this comment by Dustin Moskovitz:

> I'm not detailing specific decisions for the same reason I want to invest in fewer focus areas: additional information is used as additional attack surface area. The attitude in EA communities is "give an inch, fight a mile". So I'll choose to be less legible instead.

(quote emphasized by me)

It seems like Dustin thinks that EA's fight too much with OP, more than is fair, and therefore Dustin actively chooses to be less legible.

So, what is "fighting"? Is my questioning of the cost-effectiveness me "fighting a mile"? I have no idea.

Perhaps a better way to say, "I'm not sure if I can question this" might be something like, "I'm not sure if me raising this point would significantly frustrate people like Dustin." I'm not expecting him or others at OP to consider potentially-critical information as the kind that should be, say, legally attacked, but I do expect them to dislike a lot of this sort of conversation, and I don't feel like I understand where the lines are.

I don't particularly blame OP / EA leaders for this challenge. More that i think it's the kind of thing that comes out of most extreme power imbalances, and it takes a good deal of work to get around it.

BenjaminTereickMar 13*3

Thanks, that's a helpful clarification! "Allowed" still feels like a strong choice of words, but I can see that the line between that and "I'm not sure if this will be perceived as annoying" is blurry, and also, the latter feels frustrating enough.

I'm only speaking in personal capacity here, but my strong preference would always be for these questions to be raised!

JeremyRMar 135

There's certainly been discussion of the potential efficacy of growth-focused interventions from an EA perspective, as in this Forum Post, "Growth and the case against randomista development" (a winner of the EA Forum First Decade Review!)

To give you a taste, some arguments of theirs I found quite thought-provoking were:

Take a hypothetical cost for all economists from 1960-2010 ($300B). Assume the only impact the entire field had in this time was to "increase by 4 percentage points the probability that the Chinese government shifted to [its] new economic strategy" which drove their growth 1977+. Then, this "intervention" (the field of economics) would still have had higher ROI than cash transfers (or a "Graduation Approach" program to helping lift people out of extreme poverty)
Charts showing the relationship between median income / consumption and extreme poverty which suggest the importance (necessity?) of high median income to the reduction or elimination of poverty
...I also believe they made an argument that health interventions are actually "cheaper" through Growth vs. direct interventions due to improved health outcomes we see in countries as they grow economically... though I'm not seeing that now as I re-skim so perhaps that was a different piece

All of this said... it's hard to imagine this logic would hold (as) true for interventions in the US where Open Philanthropy is saying they're focused within this fund at the moment. So on that front I'll admit I'm more confused!

NickLaingMar 135

Yep when I first saw it I assumed they meant

Economic growth in low income countries and...
Innovation around technology that would help people in low income countries (medical innovation, fintech, drone deliveries etc.
Then I saw it was all US based.
Again I don't mind at all if open Phil has a non EA d based, US based philanthropy arm, that might be what the donors want to do and might even be a good strategic move for PR reasons. But might be good to be more explicit about that.

Ozzie GooenMar 13*3

I think that one thing that makes this a bit more confusing, to me, is the focus on Abundance / scientific progress / Progress Studies. These areas often focus on things other than strict economic growth.

It's just an incredibly broad area that they are discussing, if they want to cover things in both "Economic Growth" and "Abundance / Progress Studies".

~~Especially if they also want to cover things outside the US as well as inside the US.~~ (Sorry, I see it's mainly US now)

SiebeRozendalMar 134

One perspective one could have is that this is a positive-sum approach to influence-/power-seeking: supporting neglected policies that would benefit large amounts of the US public buys goodwill, helps develop connections with other funders, and might put people in positions of power that are highly sympathetic to EA ideas. With the current state of the EA brand, this might not be such a bad idea.

There are other ways of seeking influence but they tend to have fewer positive effects (donating to politicians, trying to run one's own candidates for office) and solely relying on the strategy "become experts and try to convince those in power of the necessary policies" isn't really bearing fruit. And it seems increasingly untenable to ignore politics, with US & UK (and Netherlands) already drastically slashing international aid and the AGI trajectory depending heavily on those in power.

It is of course different from the default EA strategy of "do the actual thing you believe is directly most cost-effective and communicate very explicitly about your theory of change". But I don't think that explicitly communicating this would be well-received by third parties. Even explicitly thinking of it this way internally is risky PR-wise.

It does seem important to clearly delineate within EA when and whose communication is meant to be representative of one's thinking, and which communication isn't. Muddying this could be quite detrimental to EA in the long-term. I'm not sure how OpenPhil should've acted here. Perhaps better if they had not posted it to the EA Forum so that they don't signal "we believe this is good on EA grounds".

All in all, I'm positively inclined towards this fund though.

Ozzie GooenMar 124

I just wrote a longer comment clarifying my views on some of the potential awkwardness of the OP-EA partnership.

https://forum.effectivealtruism.org/posts/mopsmd3JELJRyTTty/ozzie-gooen-s-shortform?commentId=o9rEBRmKoTvjNMHF7

david_reinsteinMar 1231

currently, our main focus is in the United States

What is the justification for this focus on the United States? (Which is, obviously, among the wealthiest countries in the world already).

NickLaingMar 127

Maybe they are predicting not for long... ;)

J/k

Chris LeongMar 1118

It's quite unclear that attempts to "boost scientific and technological progress" are net-positive at this point in time. I'd much rather see an effort to shift science towards differential technological development.

Karthik TadepalliMar 1413

The author of this post must be over the moon right now

ruthgraceMar 177

I am, I am !!!

I hope that this is the start of a cultural shift from zero-sum thinking to abundance mindset: Imagine if instead of people trying to remember to turn off their lights to save energy, people were thinking of ways for everyone in the world to have energy abundance. And if instead of thinking about ways to convince people in rich countries to donate to poor countries to save lives, more people were working on figuring out how to grow the economies of poor countries so that they aren't poor anymore. This thinking exists in the progress studies and abundance agenda movement, and I hope that it grows into the dominant cultural narrative in my lifetime. And yes, if the point is to build a movement, it does make sense to start in rich countries, because that's the flow of how ideas (policy ideas, business ideas) tend to spread.

I'm dreaming of a future where Givewell is obsolete because the interventions that are the best are the kind that are eradicating poverty by increasing people's incomes, and may not even be nonprofits at all. Let's fcking goooo !!!!

Matrice JacobineMar 175

There is an actual field called institutional development economics which has won a great chunk of Nobel Prizes and which already has a fairly good grasp of what it takes to get poor countries to develop. The idea that you could learn more about that without engaging in the field in the slightest but by... trying to figure out how to get rich countries with the institutional framework and problems of rich countries richer and assume that this will be magically applied (by who?) to poor countries with the institutional framework and problems of poor countries and work the same is just... straight-up obvious complete nonsense.

ruthgraceMar 18*3

Matrice JacobineMar 191

I'm not sure why you think we disagree, my "(by who?)" parenthetical was precisely pointing out that if poor countries aren't better-run it's not because it's not known what works for developing poor countries (state capacity, land reform, industrial policy), it's that the elites of those countries (dictators, generals, warlords, semi-feudal landlords and tribal chiefs; what Acemoglu and Robinson call "extractive institutions") are generally not incentive-aligned with the general well-being of the population and indeed are the ones who actively benefit from state capacity failures and rent-seeking in the first place.

I however don't see much reason to think that bringing back robust social democracy in developed countries is going to conclusively solve that (the golden age of social democracy certainly seemed to be compatible with desperately holding onto old colonial empires and then first propping up those very extractive institutions after formal decolonization under the guise of the Cold War), nor that the progress studies/abundance agenda people (mostly from bipartisan or conservative-leaning think tanks with ties to tech corporations and Peter Thiel in particular) seem to be particularly interested in bringing back robust social democracy in the first place.

Yelnats T.J.Mar 115

Nice timing with Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson's Abundance coming out soon